Congratulations! That was a job well done. It's somewhat amazing that a politician actually agreed to listen to someone who actually knows a thing or two about a subject at hand. And even more so considering that it was about firearms. Having spoken with a lot of politicians, most of them are polite enough to listen to you but the vast majority of them have already formed their opinion, usually by carefully calculating which subjects will gain the most votes in the next election.
Gun rights in Europe post Charlie Hebdo
- Thread starter Snejdarek
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Congratulations! That was a job well done. It's somewhat amazing that a politician actually agreed to listen to someone who actually knows a thing or two about a subject at hand. And even more so considering that it was about firearms. Having spoken with a lot of politicians, most of them are polite enough to listen to you but the vast majority of them have already formed their opinion, usually by carefully calculating which subjects will gain the most votes in the next election.
vaupet
Member
In Belgium, you have to get a nice place on a list to make a chance of being elected, places on the list are allocated by party members and I happen to have a lot of friends, with quite a bit of influance in his party. 
England.
I live here in England,I have many Guns and Rifles all licensed for sporting purposes. As long as we comply with the laws of the land gun ownership is not a problem.Pistols are not allowed unless long barrelled,auto and semi auto rifles are not allowed over .22lr cal.Bolt action Rifles are allowed in all calibres.
Shotguns and Rifles are on separate certificates a shotgun permit and a firearms permit.A shot gun that has a magazine to carry more than two shots must be on a Firearms permit..Black Powder Muzzleloading Pistols are allowed as are Black Powder Shotguns and Rifles.As a reason for ownership No Firearm can be owned for personal protection.
I live here in England,I have many Guns and Rifles all licensed for sporting purposes. As long as we comply with the laws of the land gun ownership is not a problem.Pistols are not allowed unless long barrelled,auto and semi auto rifles are not allowed over .22lr cal.Bolt action Rifles are allowed in all calibres.
Shotguns and Rifles are on separate certificates a shotgun permit and a firearms permit.A shot gun that has a magazine to carry more than two shots must be on a Firearms permit..Black Powder Muzzleloading Pistols are allowed as are Black Powder Shotguns and Rifles.As a reason for ownership No Firearm can be owned for personal protection.
Thermactor
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You didn't mention Pravy Sektor (Right Sector), the Maidan stormtroopers who were responsible for a great deal of brutality. They became the "national guard" so called. Their symbol is a white power symbol lifted straight from Stormfront! These people worship the collaborator Stepan Bandera and the other collaborator George Soros has been working in the background on their behalf!
Fortunately the Donetsk freedom fighters are doing a terrific job of exercising their will to survive and have driven the fascists back from the airport, and are dealing a heavy blow to Porkoshenko's candy army brigade.
This is the kind of stuff that happens when you disregard the Russian perspective. Poroshenko spurned a peace initiative shortly before his disastrous airport offensive this week that wiped out a brigade of his fascist mercenaries.
This is the kind of stuff that happens when you brush off legitimate Russian concerns about the safety of their ethnic Russian-speaking people in the lands of the former Soviet Union. If you see the photos of Donetsk, you'll see that it's a city that has been shelled to complete ruins by the Kiev junta. The people there are living in humanitarian crisis, worse than Syria. They are freezing and starving. This is a life and death situation for them and when it comes to that, you see a lot of motivation to defend the family and the people.
Meanwhile the Western media is mourning the Kiev junta's crushing defeat at the Donetsk airport, just days after loudly trumpeting Kiev's victory at the airport! They truly are assuming the role of the famous Iraqi (dis)Information minister, Abu Said as-Sahhaf or whatever his name is.
The implications for the right to keep and carry arms in eastern Europe are enormous. As more Russian speakers unite, they will fight to gain that right and use that right to win their freedom from EU tyranny.
Medusa
Member
Geez, straight from the Kremlin's nightingale, even the words are same.
Propaganda is strong and can get to almost anyone, and information war is one of the strongest one in there. If to read the russian-language media, the fantasy and truth-bending and the scale of the whole topic is so intense it makes Goebbels definitely to hide in shame. Somehow, the people living on land under the Ukrainian rule, are well, fed and in warm homes, but those under the terrorists are not.
Nato colonel sheds light on Russia 'psy-ops'
Only fascists in this hemisphere tend to live in Moscow and stir up crap all over the place, hurting own citizens and those of other countries. Ukrainian government has been democratically elected and has the recognition and support of most of the world.
Since it is the Russian way to say - we are not there, only local freedom fighters, YOU prove anything otherwise - I'll cut this short and tell you to prove it yourself, the words what you are saying, Thermactor, they imply something. Prove that.
To come back to the topic, again I say that the big neighbour and it's latest actions is one of the major forces sculpting the people's view on self-defense and security issues. The pressure is high.
Propaganda is strong and can get to almost anyone, and information war is one of the strongest one in there. If to read the russian-language media, the fantasy and truth-bending and the scale of the whole topic is so intense it makes Goebbels definitely to hide in shame. Somehow, the people living on land under the Ukrainian rule, are well, fed and in warm homes, but those under the terrorists are not.
Nato colonel sheds light on Russia 'psy-ops'
Only fascists in this hemisphere tend to live in Moscow and stir up crap all over the place, hurting own citizens and those of other countries. Ukrainian government has been democratically elected and has the recognition and support of most of the world.
Since it is the Russian way to say - we are not there, only local freedom fighters, YOU prove anything otherwise - I'll cut this short and tell you to prove it yourself, the words what you are saying, Thermactor, they imply something. Prove that.
To come back to the topic, again I say that the big neighbour and it's latest actions is one of the major forces sculpting the people's view on self-defense and security issues. The pressure is high.
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Thermactor
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Dear Medusa,
You are presuming guilt and are placing the burden of proof on the innocent victims, the accused.
Social media reports, Kiev regime sources and blurry satellite photos dark spots in a line do not constitute evidence of a 'Russian mass invasion'
The noble self-defense forces of Eastern Ukraine use AKM-style rifles and other self-defense armaments that have been liberated from Kiev's control, they keep and bear them daily in the areas they are responsible for keeping the peace and protecting the populace.
You are presuming guilt and are placing the burden of proof on the innocent victims, the accused.
Social media reports, Kiev regime sources and blurry satellite photos dark spots in a line do not constitute evidence of a 'Russian mass invasion'
The noble self-defense forces of Eastern Ukraine use AKM-style rifles and other self-defense armaments that have been liberated from Kiev's control, they keep and bear them daily in the areas they are responsible for keeping the peace and protecting the populace.
Germans were very "concerned" about german-speaking population in Sudetenland of former Austro-Hungarian empire, too, and once the ethnicity excuse was accepted, the next thing you knew was Panzerkampfwagens parading in Vienna and Salzburg. Talk about the history repeating itself in Ukraine, I would've expected Russia to at least think of a new excuse of their own when they were at it. There's a well-documented, oppressed finnish-speaking ethnic minority in Russia. Would you say that fact could justify military action against another sovereign country?
Didn't think so.
IMO this whole conversation is getting severely derailed now. If I wanted to hear propaganda I'd turn the TV to Russia 1 and have my son translate it for me, providing that he could get a word out of his mouth while laughing his butt off.
OK I'm only going here one time and I think it's probably time to move on after that. What you just described is the exact conditions my friends found in St. Petersburg when they moved there. And it is colder there of course. Lots of people living on the street some of them without any shoes. Others had pathetic excuses for shoes consisting mainly of cardboard. Our church put together a large shoe drive to collect shoes for the people there attending the church my friends started. We pretty much filled a train car with them. Not one pair ever made it past the Russian mob. Well that's possibly not true. If you had the funds (a ridiculously high price) you could buy the shoes we bought and sent there to be given away. I could go on with stories of how WWII veterans were treated there essentially being throwaway humans. I could talk about apartment buildings where the temperature barely got above freezing. But of course the party members had always lived very well and the mobsters were living well also.
Yeah the Russian government was concerned about the poor Russian speaking people of the Ukraine. Too bad they weren't concerned about the poor Russian speaking people in St. Petersburg.
I've seen too much of Russian propaganda over the years. And this isn't what gets filtered by the media. This is my own contacts with people who actually live there. I'm sorry but the talking points memo you posted for us doesn't impress me. It's obviously a canned response and not something likely to convince me of anything.
Again I don't know what actually goes on in the Ukraine. But this party line stuff (or whatever Putin calls it) is just so much static IMO.
OP
OP
Snejdarek
Member
I just wrote it elsewhere. It has been reported that some prominent rabbi in France asked for easier access to firearms for self defense for Jews. Now, a number of European rabbis issued a statement to the contrary, slamming the former one. What may be of interest is that it is signed also by some Prague rabbi, i.e. the one living in country where Jews may be armed.
"It is unfortunate, and indeed potentially dangerous to the welfare of our communities, that such comments were widely reported in the press last week in the wake of the terror attacks in France, a period when our community organisations were in constant contact with our governments and security agencies to protect our members and their families.
Mr. Margolin’s association of irrelevant and unrepresentative self-created groups does not in any way convey upon him a role as a spokesman or representative of our communities. He has never been chosen nor elected to any such role."
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news...-jews-to-carry-guns.html#sthash.gKpdzVGt.dpuf
"It is unfortunate, and indeed potentially dangerous to the welfare of our communities, that such comments were widely reported in the press last week in the wake of the terror attacks in France, a period when our community organisations were in constant contact with our governments and security agencies to protect our members and their families.
Mr. Margolin’s association of irrelevant and unrepresentative self-created groups does not in any way convey upon him a role as a spokesman or representative of our communities. He has never been chosen nor elected to any such role."
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news...-jews-to-carry-guns.html#sthash.gKpdzVGt.dpuf
Medusa
Member
That would be nice, but only when it doesn't stop there - all law abiding citizens can provide their safety better, not just jews. I understand the point, where it comes from, but making it an Orwellian equality would hurt the good cause.
It is good in a way, that the jews and their requests are heard, so this actually might initiate a change in positive direction.
It is good in a way, that the jews and their requests are heard, so this actually might initiate a change in positive direction.
If I live for 1000 years I will never understand the idea of assigning protection of my family over to a police force that can't possibly be in position to protect them even a small percentage of the time. When you've sat under the gun a few times (which I have) you tend to think in terms of being able to defend yourself when the need arises. Sitting with a gun pointed at you waiting for a cop that may or may not show up and knowing that if the cops do show up you might be caught in the crossfire is NOT my idea of how a person exercises the right to defend their life. Then there's the idiotic actions of the people who may be with you. They may panic or they may try to be a super hero with no means of actually defending themselves and drawing fire toward those with more sense. To see the LEO's make a hero out of an idiot like that just adds insult to possible deadly injury.
No, I would much rather have my own weapon safe and secure in the knowledge that I know how to use it as well as the vast majority of humans. I may choose to not use that weapon or I may see the genuine opportunity to effect a positive change on a situation and I don't mean by false bravado like some might do. I want to put big holes in those people pointing guns at me. I decided that in the cool light of hindsight too. It would have been much better to have my own gun every time I sat under the threat of being shot. That may not always be true but it sure was true every time I faced that situation. I won't be caught with my pants down again thanks to sensible CCW laws. The next time some bozo runs for the front door endangering my wife and myself I won't have to sit with nothing in my hand but my wife's head (holding her down to protect her with my body as much as possible).
The no good, do-gooders put me in that kind of situation too many times in my life. I will never understand why. You are better off with your own weapon if you train to use it. Never let them convince you otherwise.
No, I would much rather have my own weapon safe and secure in the knowledge that I know how to use it as well as the vast majority of humans. I may choose to not use that weapon or I may see the genuine opportunity to effect a positive change on a situation and I don't mean by false bravado like some might do. I want to put big holes in those people pointing guns at me. I decided that in the cool light of hindsight too. It would have been much better to have my own gun every time I sat under the threat of being shot. That may not always be true but it sure was true every time I faced that situation. I won't be caught with my pants down again thanks to sensible CCW laws. The next time some bozo runs for the front door endangering my wife and myself I won't have to sit with nothing in my hand but my wife's head (holding her down to protect her with my body as much as possible).
The no good, do-gooders put me in that kind of situation too many times in my life. I will never understand why. You are better off with your own weapon if you train to use it. Never let them convince you otherwise.
Medusa
Member
Cee Zee, I fully sign up on your last post. Definitely, I also have to be able to provide my own safety, because when I had to, it was either that or nothing. Besides, the do-gooders forget, intentionally or not, that the police is not there to protect each and every one, all day every day. They have a different function, so who is left to defend a specific person? That person.
I have needed my stuff the way the were intended to, because there was no other safe way, or lesser harm prevented bigger one.
Because of that I fully support the US second amendment and educate people, to help un-demonize the guns and self-defense.
I have needed my stuff the way the were intended to, because there was no other safe way, or lesser harm prevented bigger one.
Because of that I fully support the US second amendment and educate people, to help un-demonize the guns and self-defense.
Medusa if there's anything we can do to help your cause there in the "old world" most of us would be glad to lend a hand. I just wish some of the do-gooders had to sit through what I did. It wouldn't take too many examples before they get it. The police are there to arrest people "after" they commit a crime. Preventing that crime is up to you. Most LEO's are fine people but official policy can sometimes make them far less than effective and actually a hindrance to self defense. I look back the infamous Columbine shootings and remember that the police set up a perimeter where no one could go in or out and those kids inside were sitting ducks for the other kids that came prepared to do evil. That made me sick to see that. Not only did the police not go in after the kids they didn't let anyone else do it either. That's how too many LEO's operate and most of the time it isn't the individual LEO. It's official policy and they have to obey it. It's insanity IMO.
There's one thing I've been thinking about for several years. At one point I thought about bringing it up in discussions with US NRA but never got around to it.
One of the main arguments used by european antis is USA, drawing conclusions between the sheer number of privately owned firearms and homicide rate. That, of course, is kindergarten logic and using correlation as a crutch instead of concentrating in actual causality. As several (all) statistics clearly show, there's not even a correlation between legal gun ownership and violent crime; in the vast majority it's even negative, both ways.
It would be highly beneficial for both european gun debate and US domestic one to have the police publish two independet statistics: One that lists violent / "gun" crime committed by individuals who can legally possess a firearm, and another one those who aren't allowed to have a gun in the first place, ie. felons, ex-cons, mental patients and so on.
A statistic like that would essentially strip the antis of one of their most commonly used excuses to restrict and control private gun ownership. In most countries the vast majority of violent crime is committed by repeat offenders and even though US DOJ doesn't publish their statistics (they do of everything and anything else; by gender, race, location etc.), I can't see how the situation would be any different in the US.
Thermactor
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Kiev's occupation government has been purchased with $5bn of State Department funds and the elections were a sham. Remember during protests when Ukraine's rightful democratically elected leader was overthrown in cynical coup by imperialist aggressors? They even issued Interpol sham "Red Letter" to attempt illegal apprehension.
Now Kiev occupation leader Poroshenko continues to break agreements to peacefully withdraw fascist aggressor forces and heavy artillery greater than 100mm from Donetsk Peoples Republic, while claiming to be victim. Is incredible state of affairs which is why we are not fooled.
Right to bear arms very important in Europe when color revolutions are orchestrated by imperial aggressors!
But of course it has been, my dear.
Now, would you mind starting a separate thread for that, providing that THR moderators approve of one? Last I checked, conspiracy theories, accusing other members of imaginary phobias only because expressed facts conflict with your opinions, and propaganda horse$#!% commonly associated with Веб-бригады operations weren't an acceptable subject on this forum.
If a thread gets locked because of all that, let's make sure it's a completely irrelevant one instead of the conversation we're having here.
Thermactor
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We are having rational discussion and conversation about right to bear arms in adverse situation and Ukraine is correct example.
One concern is right to bear arms after immediate phase of struggle is over. People must talk frankly about the situation afterward to ensure peace in community.
One concern is right to bear arms after immediate phase of struggle is over. People must talk frankly about the situation afterward to ensure peace in community.
Medusa
Member
Again, please prove your words, you as an accuser, not a victim.
But difficult times affect the understanding of a right to bear arms. Be it unfriendly neighbour, unknown green men or terrorist running rampant, it does not do to just ignore the topic in vain hope of it disappearing.
This is a big problem with Europe, though it's current actions are harsher and more determined as one would have expected a year ago. But the mentality is still so common, I mean here something like if a reality is unnerving or uncomfortable, people tend to ignore, or push the topic away, so that the life could follow a familiar and secure path. Hope, that if you ignore the evil, or just look away, it won't hurt you - better him than me - and it also goes away. Sadly, what you don't know just might kill you.
But difficult times affect the understanding of a right to bear arms. Be it unfriendly neighbour, unknown green men or terrorist running rampant, it does not do to just ignore the topic in vain hope of it disappearing.
This is a big problem with Europe, though it's current actions are harsher and more determined as one would have expected a year ago. But the mentality is still so common, I mean here something like if a reality is unnerving or uncomfortable, people tend to ignore, or push the topic away, so that the life could follow a familiar and secure path. Hope, that if you ignore the evil, or just look away, it won't hurt you - better him than me - and it also goes away. Sadly, what you don't know just might kill you.
OP
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Snejdarek
Member
Now, Vaupet, that is something just astonishing. I hope I will make my way to have enough skill as well as firepower to be able to introduce someone to firearms the way you do it (I got my license and first gun just a year ago, having no one close that would introduce me to firearms).this is going to be a rather long post:
Part one: on LEO and their duty side-arms: It has been a tradition in Belgium for LEO to take their duty gun home after their shift finished.
Several years ago there was a real boom in family drama's and suicides in wich LEO or their family members were killed with these duty guns, so the government issued an order that duty gun should remain at the police station, except for some officers who are suposedly on an 24h availability scheme.
Last thursday 2 alledged muslim terrorist, both believed to have returned from Sirya - IS) were killed in Verviers by special police forces and in their home evidence was found (hearsay) that they were targeting policeforces and planning an attack on the Molenbeek police headquarters, wich they knew fairly well because they were hosted there on several occasions during their adolescence. They were just trying to get back at the cops.
Police forces now feel they are targets, so every patrol now has Uzi or MP5 smg at arms lenght.
A lot of our police officers also feel they could be targets when they are of duty, so they asked permission to keep their weapons available off duty.
I'm not realy sure but police sidearms are not governed by law or at least there is no mentioning of them in the law that applies to me, but by police regulations, even in of duty situations. It is a sign of a real evolved democracy to make laws for everyone but themselves, remember Orwell: all animals are equal, but some are more equal then others.
Part two: LEO and active membership odf shooting clubs: a lot of them do, certainly the smarther ones, because in general a LEO in Belgium gets 4 4 hour training sessions and 120 to 180 rounds of 9 mm per year for training purposes, so any additional training is welcome, even at own expense
Part three: politics after paris and verviers:
yesterday at the club, some members pointed out to me that a local politian urged our province governor (who is responsible for allocation gun permits) not to issue anymore permits for semi auto 'heavy rifles'.
So I phoned said politician this morning and he said to me that he was working on something like this for some time because he believed semi auto rifles are to easy to convert to full auto and he believed they shouldn't be in the hands of the public. He also said he was aware that the real problem was illegal full autos inported from the east, but hey, in the fuss of the moment it should be easier to get his motion passed and it was certainly going to give him more attention from the press
Now he is a member of our liberal democratic party (and remember liberal in europe = libertarian in US) and I (a liberal/libertarian myself) pointed out to him that a true libertarian believes in free choice with responsibility to go, so anyone should have the freedom to chose his own hobby and to buy stuff as long as he doesn't hurt anybody else, and he agried (what else could he do)
Long story cut short: the governor didn't follow the proposal yesterday, and will stay with federal law, said politician will not introduce a new proposal and added me to has list of people to consult whenever he had questions about gun-issues and he accepted my invitatian for an introduction day at our shooting club. Does that make me an activist now?
Part four (of toppic, yet on topic as well) : introducing new people to the shooting sport
Is I said, yesterday I was at the range to introduce the husband of a member of the EU parliament to the shooting sport.
This is how i go about:
first a safetybriefing about the four rules,
Then there is a half hour session with air rifle and air pistol (match grade Anschutz rifle and Steyr pistol) at 10 metres in which I introduce stance, breathing and trigger technique and aiming technique.
Next we go to the 50 m range for some rifle shooting using an Anschutz single shot then a Browning T-bolt .22 lr rifle and if they are confident enough I let them have a taste of my Unique Alpine TPG 1 in 6.5x55SE
Last we go to the 10/25 m range, were we start of with a browning buckmark at 10m in a single handed stance, then USP 9 mm at 10 m, two handed.
If the new shooter has enough confidence, we shoot my USP 45 match (some real guys immediately recognize it as lara croft's gun) at 10 two handed and ultimately, after I show them and if they insist, they may shoot the 45 single handed at 25 m.
If you want to see a realy big grin, you should come along.
Sorry for the long poste, but don't say I didn't warn U
With me when it comes to total strangers to guns, it is meet up at my home, going through the four rules, proper grip, long dry firing drill. Then I put 1 in the chamber, insert the magazine and put the CZ 75 Compact D in the holster (this little exercise usually leads to few seconds of surprised silence followed by multitude of questions related to practicalities of concealed carry as well as armed self defense).
Then we go to range on the other side of the city (most often taking public transportation). There I let the person choose a gun to borrow they would like to try apart from mine (i usually suggest 1911 or CZ 97 to guys and small .38 revolvers to girls). Quick repeat of four rules, then load one shoot one five times followed by an hour or two of shooting.
I am not a good shot by a long margin so I can imagine that someone else could be a better teacher, but hey, I get a convert every time. So far all have not only had a good time, but they have also become strong defenders of concealed carry.
Being a good shot is not as hard as it sounds. There are a few basic skills that will make a huge difference for almost everyone who hasn't already learned them.
Trigger control is probably the biggest reason people miss what they're aiming at. It takes a short time to learn good trigger control with the right drill. It helps to have a gun that can be dry fired but if not you can use snap caps or even an empty cartridge. All you really need is a gun and a cheap laser that you can attach to the gun with a piece of tape or string or whatever as long as it's snug enough not to move easily. It doesn't need to be sighted in like a laser sight would. You just need it mounted. Find a nice safe place where you can see the laser light up on a wall or whatever. Learn to hold the laser on a spot just like you would when you aim. Then practice pulling the trigger (unloaded of course or with snap caps) without letting the laser move from where you're pointing it. An hour of this will give you a whole new perspective on trigger pulls. The type of trigger you have matters of course but with a light trigger pull you should be able to master keeping the laser dot on target with ease. Then when you actually start to shoot pull the trigger just like you did in the drill.
Breathing control helps a lot in trigger control and aim control. Learn to fire between breaths. I like to take in a breath, let it out and take in half another breath and fire.
At some point it will help to learn to fire between your heart beats. This is much tougher to learn but it will get you past being a good shooter into being a very good shooter.
Learning to not flinch from anticipated recoil or even anticipated reaction to the noise level is also important. It helps to fire either a very small caliber gun at first or you can use low powered rounds depending on your weapon of course. Once you adapt your brain to expecting the noise and the flash all that's left is dealing with recoil. And that's largely a matter of the correct grip on a gun. That's a little more complicated but there are many web sites that explain it pretty well.
Once you learn these things shooting will become much easier. I'm far from the best shooter on earth but I'm a decent shooter. And I don't think there's any reason for anyone not to be a decent shooter. I taught my wife to shoot a 3" group at 25 yards with a .22 pistol. And she hasn't exactly been much of a shooter. She has shot some but not enough to learn to shoot well.
Stance is important, knowing how to aim is important especially at longer distances, and believing in yourself is important.
If you can do these things you can be a good shooter in a short time. It's really not a complicated thing. It's just a matter of controlling a few things.
I don't mean to sound egotistical here. I just believe you can learn to shoot well in a short time. I've seen your posts. You understand things a lot more complicated than shooting. I didn't post this for any other reason than to help someone who is fairly new to shooting. I've been doing it for over 50 years but the truth is I learned most of what I know before I was 10. It isn't really a complicated subject to get to the point of being a good shooter. Now being a great shooter is another matter but you'll have to ask someone else how you do that.
The invasion is real, but it started nearly a year ago. These allegedly "local" units fighting in the Crimea and around Slovyansk included several people previously photographed in Russia as part of Russian military units, and of Russian units in Georgia during the Georgian war. And there are pro-Moscow combatants who appeared in both Crimea and Slovyansk...you can't be the local populace of both, right?
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/21/w...asked-men-in-east-ukraine-to-russia.html?_r=0
Not to mention the uniformity in equipment, vehicles, and armament of the "polite men" is very much out-of-character for local civilian militias, and they're not Ukranian uniforms. So where are these allegedly-"local civilian militias" getting all their uniforms and standardized equipment? The only logical answer is that these highly-trained, well-equipped "local" forces are Russian soldiers.
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Russians have a good track record of fighting nazis so won't be any different fighting Svoboda neo nazis.
I firmly believe the only reason you have such gun rights in the Czech Republic is having been under the boot of the USSR when it collapsed and the birth of a new nation state.
The technocrats in Brussels will not permit concealed carry as time goes by - so enjoy it while it lasts
I firmly believe the only reason you have such gun rights in the Czech Republic is having been under the boot of the USSR when it collapsed and the birth of a new nation state.
The technocrats in Brussels will not permit concealed carry as time goes by - so enjoy it while it lasts
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OP
Snejdarek
Member
The Czech statehood has been here since 9th century, just that English was using "Bohemia" from Latin instead of "Czech" from Czech language. Before being overrun by Habsburg Catholic forces in 1620s, it was a progressive state with elected king and strong middle class (townsmen and farmers working their own farms instead of living on rented premises owned by nobility like elsewhere in Europe). It was a 95% Bretheren/Protestant nation with universal education notwithstanding class or gender.
The 1918 Czechoslovakia was established with the Czech part within the borders of the Czech kingdom as they remained under Austrian occupation, with its constitution deeply reflecting the 14th/15th century Czech reformers' philosophy of personal freedoms and religious rights (and separation of legislative/judiciary/government powers modeled after the US). We may have had 50 years of dark Nazi and Communist overlords, but getting rid of them wasn't as much about building new nation state as it was about continuing where things ended in 1938. That included restoring access to firearms. Now Slovaks are nice people with gorgeous women, but they have a bit different idea about running things (mainly stemming from the fact that Czechs are 80-85% atheist and Slovaks 80-85% Catholic & Slovaks tend to be strong nationalists unlike Czechs) so they went their own way - they really did build a new nation state after the fall of communism.
Brussels firearm directives have been so far quite modest mostly sticking to the bottom line that abolition of internal border controls should not lead to proliferation of guns from states with easy access to states with restrictive rules. Moreover, it introduced European Firearms Pass making it easy for hunters and sport shooters to take their guns from one country to another without having to deal with a mountain of paperwork.
Yes, there are sometimes people like Malmström that are a good reason for all European gun owners to stay vigilant, but so far so good. One of the main obstacles for Brussels hoplophobes is the way EU works. EU may introduce laws only that are necessary to accomplish EU goals - which are mainly free movement of goods, capital, services and people. Concealed carry within a state's border is nowhere near EU competences.
Today, Russia has by far the largest, most extremist neo nazi scene in Europe. People are being killed on the streets for having different color of skin or speaking different language. The neo nazis are even filming those killings and putting the videos online. There may be far right parties members being elected in some other countries, but those are mainstream liberals compared to Russian neo nazis. You are trying to use the logic of past battles on tomorrows encounter.
http://youtu.be/aLUxuq-E9yA
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I would completely agree with your post if not for this line and really it's a minor point but one I think should be made. I just don't think Nazism is a far right ideology or a right wing ideology at all. I may be splitting hairs but from what I've seen it's people with "progressive" ideas that want to eliminate opposition through extermination and other such evils. It may be there is a difference in the way we define right wing but here in the US we look at right wing stuff as conservative stuff meaning we want to conserve the values we have had in the past. That generally doesn't include wiping out people of other ethnic backgrounds. Of course if you go back far enough that was the norm in this country but it hasn't been that way for well over a century. Conservative to me means remaining true to the ideals of the 1950's. We wish to conserve that way of living. Nazis and other extremists don't wish to keep things the way they were. They want to knock down everything they don't like. Certainly there are old ways of thinking that are best long gone and I have no desire to see them return. The Jim Crow era is one of those things. It was an abomination and too often it too is blamed on "right wing" thinking. In fact it was people on the other end of the spectrum that embraced that ideology IMO. The "progressives" have long dominated the Democrat party and that was the party of Jim Crow despite revisionists who claim otherwise. All I can say is that if you could see a photo of my son and his fiance you would get a pretty good idea how far away from that thinking my family is. I was raised to believe that way. My mother picked up the mother of the first black student at my high school (when I was still much younger than high school age) and gave her a ride to ball games which in the south was an offense that could get you lynched in some areas. My uncle married a black woman back in the 1960's. And we were always considered conservative including being tightly connected to the Republican party of the time. My Christian upbringing taught me that all life has value and the outward appearance means nothing. I still believe that today as clearly my children do. So really even back during the Jim Crow days we didn't believe in those obnoxious laws. We risked our safety to help end them in fact. And again we are right wingers and always have been. Nazis don't think the way we think from what I can see.
I still think it's a shame that your people were pushed so hard by the Catholics and the Hapsburgs that you gave up your Protestant beliefs. Life is so much better when you serve a cause greater than yourself and Ive seen plenty of evidence of the reality of that cause too BTW. But that's a topic for another board of course. If I was truly trying to "shove that thinking down your throat" (very, very rare in this country) I might be mistaken for an extreme right winger but very few groups embrace that way of thinking. We much prefer reasoned arguments for spreading the gospel. I embrace the old ways of seeing things but I don't try to force them on anyone. I believe that's the difference between right wing and far right. Just food for thought here. I also embrace the gun culture because it is a traditional way of doing things and because it just makes sense. Either way that makes me a conservative or right wing thinker in this country even though many believe in the RTKBA without believing in other "right wing" causes.
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OP
OP
Snejdarek
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I agree with you. But for the sake of simplicity I use the general perception of nazi = far right. Otherwise the post would be too long and the main message lost in it.
I respect your opinion and I respect you religion. I would say that for people to whom the idea of nothingness after death is something they can't cope with, the religion may be a good thing. Otherwise, with all respect, I don't see any benefits of believing in a higher power, whatever it may be. But I don't feel the need to be pushing this on any believers and I expect the believers to leave me alone all the same.
A completely unrelated question that came to my mind: The only gun free zones in the Czech Republic are court houses (+ parliament, senate). They all have metal detectors and armed judicial guard at entrance as well as elsewhere in the building. Nevertheless, I can come to a court house and leave gun for safe keeping with the judicial guard upon entry. Can you leave your gun with guard upon entering protected gun free zone in US, Estonia, Finland? (I understand you would not leave it with a school janitor)
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