1911 is outdated?

I'd always liked the 1911 from back when I was a kid, and when I got into IPSC in 1981 I went on a "Colt kick". I bought any rusty clunker ex-GI that I could find. They're so easy to work on! And inexpensive, which is good for a tightwad.

Sure, they needed work and for-sure, better sights. So? Too easy.

My lightweight Commander carries real easy in my Coronado vest.

The only time I ever had a problem with a 1911 was when a reload was primer-only. I double-tapped and the second round bulged the barrel. Easy fix. And I did only slow fire through the rest of that batch of reloads and no further problems.

Still and all, the best pistol made is the one with which you can best hit your intended target. Glock for you? Colt for me? Whoop-ti-do. Time for a beer.

If I take ten 1911's from the same maker and 10 G17's and strip them all and mix them in separate 5 gallon buckets and have to stake my life on the one first one of each I put back together which one should I choose?

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I am pretty sure I heard that is what our military did with 1911's back when they were in service and since they were made to milspec and designed to do that it worked fine and most of the production 1911 manufacturers aren't fitting the small parts to their guns so even with a well made current production 1911 it should work fine.

Zerodefect said:

The 1911 is a PITA. Wrong mags or ammo or lube, and it ain't going to run.

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I like how you started your posting with "In my opinion..." because it clarifies the fact that it's YOUR opinion. Kudos!

Anyway...it seems to follow that if you use the "wrong mags" or "wrong ammo" or "wrong lube" with anything, it "ain't going to run". This includes Glock, Colt, Springfield, etc.

The key word in all this is "wrong".

Seems to me that if I buy a car and put the wrong oil in it and it quits running, or if I put the wrong fuel pump in and it won't start, or if I fill it up with the wrong fuel and gum up the engine, that's not the fault of the car. It's my fault.

If I buy a Glock and I don't use the right parts or ammunition, etc, then I'll also have problems. Likewise, this would be my fault, not Glock's, for not taking proper care of my pistol.


People need to quit associating "doing the wrong thing" with "the (fill in the blank gun) is a PITA" or "this (fill in the blank gun) needs to be 'tuned'".

The corrective action in these instances is to "quit doing the wrong thing".

This is good news for me. I like old outdated stuff. The 1911 isn't really the best fit for a service weapon anymore, but I'm not in the service. The service cartridge seems to be 9 mm and the pistol high capacity. So who cares if the 1911 is out dated. I think Vickers is speaking to a crowd of tactical groupies and wants to be their Messiah. 1911 bashing seems to be a past time for those folks. 95% of them have never been shot at or had to shoot anyone. I would say a need for a tactical edge was mostly not needed.

CoalTrain49 said:

I think Vickers is speaking to a crowd of tactical groupies and wants to be their Messiah. 1911 bashing seems to be a past time for those folks.

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You mean the guy who said

"Once a guy cuts his teeth on a 1911, he'll never be truly happy with anything else, I do my best shooting with that gun"

Doesn't exactly sound like the words of the 1911 bashing Messiah....

HOOfan_1 said:

You mean the guy who said

"Once a guy cuts his teeth on a 1911, he'll never be truly happy with anything else, I do my best shooting with that gun"

Doesn't exactly sound like the words of the 1911 bashing Messiah....

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Nope. It sounds like someone whose opinion changes direction with the wind.

Carried a 1911 while serving at the end of Vietnam - shot just fine. Now own a WC CQB and a LB PII - both shoot great - wife carries/ shoots a G19 - shoots great. I have never understood these conversations. Thanks.

Quote:
If I take ten 1911's from the same maker and 10 G17's and strip them all and mix them in separate 5 gallon buckets and have to stake my life on the one first one of each I put back together which one should I choose?
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I am pretty sure I heard that is what our military did with 1911's back when they were in service and since they were made to milspec and designed to do that it worked fine and most of the production 1911 manufacturers aren't fitting the small parts to their guns so even with a well made current production 1911 it should work fine.

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They did.

When the US government realized that we'd be dragged into a war, the engineers got busy revamping the specs and created a standardized set of gauges for all parts and sub-assemblies to insure that any part produced by any contractor could be installed into any pistol made by any contractor without the need for fitting or adjustment...and meet military standards for accuracy and function.

And it worked.

The problem isn't with the design. The problem is with the modern execution of the design. So many manufacturers seem to be making up the specs as they go.

The other problem is that...so many people have been trying for so long to prove that they're smarter than John Browning...they really believe they have.

The 1911 was designed to function. That was paramount.

If the gun is built to spec and fed decent ammunition from a proper magazine...it will function. It's a machine. It doesn't have a choice.

50 years from now, when we have 25 or 30 different companies producing the Glock, we'll likely have the same issues and complaints that the pistol is obsolete and finicky.

The AR is a PITA. Wrong mags or ammo or lube, and it ain't going to run.

That statement is true about all firearms. The M1 Carbine is an excellent design. The execution becomes problematic when commercial manufacturers put their spin on it and things didn't work out. The only reason the AR is largely successful is that the big boys largely manufacture to exact specs (and because most AR companies are just brand-stampers, there are relatively few actual manufacturers).

If I go to Harbor Freight and get one of their Chinese Snap-On copies and it breaks, I cannot fault the Snap-On design. If I get one of their Chinese Predator copies of a Honda motor and it is unreliable or breaks soon, I cannot fault the Honda design.

In my opinion, there's only 2 fighting pistols. The 1911 and the Glock. Everything else is a step behind.

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Whew. I'm sure glad all those countries that have issued Hi-Powers, and CZ75s (and clones) to their militaries and police don't know that they have been a step behind all along!
And what about the police agencies that issue Smith's M&P, Sigs, and H&Ks... those guys are really a step behind since those guns are so lacking with their.... ummm.... yeah....

The rest are pitiful Lorcin quality Kimbers, Para Ord, and Springfields.

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Come on now. Have you ever actually handled a Springfield, or for that matter a Lorcin? I have no experience with either iteration of Para, but I can confidently say that at each price point in their product lines, Springfield and Kimber offer very competitive products. Something tells me that Zerodefect has never beheld a Springfield TRP.
Saying things like this just completely undermines your credibility.

I can't recall which pistol it was for (maybe VP9 or PPQ), but he basically said it was a great gun, maybe even better than a Glock, but at the end of the day, most his students shoot Glocks and he sells Glock parts, so he'll likely go back to shooting Glocks. He didn't dance around it.

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It was the VP9. He said as much in a class of his I took.

So, by his own statements, am I to conclude that Larry has been ripping his customers off?
After all, he says it takes $1000 to make it run right, yet his minimum for a build he made starts at $5000? Never saw one of his pistols so I really can't say-maybe he did a lot of extra polishing/finishing/cutting on his to make it his own, so I really can't say one way or another.

To be fair, I have seen some pretty steep prices for custom 1911s and they looked too pretty to shoot. I am not a collector so I don't see me paying such prices.

"Pain in the ass"? Either quit sitting on it or get a proper holster for the thing. It doesn't take jedi mind tricks to keep a 1911 running. Unload it, strip it, clean it, lube it, reassemble and reload. I would and did expect everyone I served with to do the same on their primary and secondary weapons, regardless of what they were carrying. One doesn't always know what is behind the next tree or hill. Maybe the Glocks are easier to field strip-can't say because I never tore one down.

I also don't "mess around" with my 1911's. I feed them good ammo from good magazines-failure to do either will tie up any weapon including Glocks.

Finicky. Guess I need clarification on that one. I have a Gold Cup Trophy and a Series 80 Government model, and both of them will feed lead semi wadcutters ranging from 155 to 200 grain and jacketed hollowpoints 165 to 230 grain weights, as well as FMJ 230 grain. They prefer certain loads for accuracy's sake but are reliable with any of them, from target loads to plus P.

Constant attention? I don't know what he is buying or what he is doing to them after he buys them, but whatever it is, he should rethink what he is doing. Mine run and run just like a lot of people I know who also have a good 1911. No fuss, no tears, no malfunctions. I have fired both of them by holding them with just my trigger finger and thumb and neither one has hiccupped.

Normal maintenance consists of cleaning, lubing, replacing springs when they get tired, but other than the springs, the only thing which has worn on them is the blued finish.

I don't abuse them. I don't fire thousands of rounds between cleanings because I want to and do depend on them.

I would do exactly the same thing if I owned a Glock instead of a Colt.

Yeah, this statement was a bit silly:

The rest are pitiful Lorcin quality Kimbers, Para Ord, and Springfields.

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"Lorcin quality?" Whew. Must be a Dan Wesson fanboy (they all seem to look down their noses at SA, even the marvelous TRP and Professional models). And none of my Kimbers could be equated to zinc-alloy Lorcins; they've all be worthy pistols.

As far as "extra maintenance," I've never spent much more time on my 1911s than my other semi-autos. A few tweaks here or there from time to time, but it's like doing maintenance on ... my lawnmowers. And, it's fun.

Get much more satisfaction just doing routine maintenance on one of my beautiful Colts than I ever did when I field stripped my issued Glock. Some pride of ownership here.

Pity guys like Vickers and Hackathorn follow the endorsement money. Bill Wilson names a pistol after Ken Hackathorn and then the guy admits that he mostly uses Glocks. Same for Vickers (his rifle views seemed to shift depending on who was paying him, too).

RetiredUSNChief said:

I like how you started your posting with "In my opinion..." because it clarifies the fact that it's YOUR opinion. Kudos!

Anyway...it seems to follow that if you use the "wrong mags" or "wrong ammo" or "wrong lube" with anything, it "ain't going to run". This includes Glock, Colt, Springfield, etc.

The key word in all this is "wrong".

Seems to me that if I buy a car and put the wrong oil in it and it quits running, or if I put the wrong fuel pump in and it won't start, or if I fill it up with the wrong fuel and gum up the engine, that's not the fault of the car. It's my fault.

If I buy a Glock and I don't use the right parts or ammunition, etc, then I'll also have problems. Likewise, this would be my fault, not Glock's, for not taking proper care of my pistol.


People need to quit associating "doing the wrong thing" with "the (fill in the blank gun) is a PITA" or "this (fill in the blank gun) needs to be 'tuned'".

The corrective action in these instances is to "quit doing the wrong thing".

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The difference being that the 1911 mags, ammo, and lube only have to be a little wrong. Slightly bent feed lip on mag? Weakish mag spring? Remington UMC ammo? Each of those will mess up even the better 1911's. I can step on my Glock mags all the live long day, and that gun will function flawlessly. Use whatever lube is in the kitchen. Or even a teenagers face. And any full power ammo, of the right caliber, is GTG.

How far wrong with a Glock, HK, or M&P, can you be, before you run into problems. A lot further than a 1911, IME.

And yes, Old Dog. My Kimbers and Springfields were turds I could never count on. Even after fixing them, I'll never trust them for CCW. There are better options. If you can choose a better option, do so. I don't just look down upon the Loaded. I'll throw it away, or trade it in. Give me one and I'll show you. I'll stick to my pistols that function and perform, and dispose of the ones that don't.

1911Tuner said:

They did.

When the US government realized that we'd be dragged into a war, the engineers got busy revamping the specs and created a standardized set of gauges for all parts and sub-assemblies to insure that any part produced by any contractor could be installed into any pistol made by any contractor without the need for fitting or adjustment...and meet military standards for accuracy and function.

And it worked.

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Yep. It worked incredibly well for everything, which was exactly why they did this.

With a national set of standards by which all measurements are calibrated to, any machine shop anywhere in the country could make any part to whatever specifications required and then all those parts could be shipped to whatever destination for final assembly. And the finished product would work.

And those machine shops could be anything from a factory machine shop full of trained mechanics or a school machine shop full of students supervised by teachers.

That was the point.

The Germans were incredibly proficient at this during their war efforts.

My Kimbers and Springfields were turds I could never count on. Even after fixing them, I'll never trust them for CCW.

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So let me get this straight. You happened to get two bad examples of firearms, and all of a sudden the products those companies put out generally are Lorcin quality... that's what you're saying. One bad example of each condemns the entire product line from those manufacturers, despite the overwhelmingly positive reviews from everyone else who has them?

I'm also curious about:

Even after fixing them

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After who fixed them? You? The company? Local gunsmith? Did the pistols work after a competent smith fixed them?
I really feel like with a statement as huge as accusing these companies of putting out Lorcin quality, we need a lot more information if your opinion is to be taken seriously here.

Edit to add:

How far wrong with a Glock, HK, or M&P, can you be, before you run into problems. A lot further than a 1911, IME.

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My Colt will reliably load empty cases from the magazine. It's the only way I can force a malfunction, to drill with it. Forcing a failure to fire because it's a spent casing is the most expedient way I can get a "malfunction" because otherwise I can limp wrist, run it "too dry" or "too wet" or dirty as hell and I can't get it to fail.

19-3Ben said:

So let me get this straight. You happened to get two bad examples of firearms, and all of a sudden the products those companies put out generally are Lorcin quality... that's what you're saying. One bad example of each condemns the entire product line from those manufacturers, despite the overwhelmingly positive reviews from everyone else who has them?

I'm also curious about:


After who fixed them? You? The company? Local gunsmith? Did the pistols work after a competent smith fixed them?
I really feel like with a statement as huge as accusing these companies of putting out Lorcin quality, we need a lot more information if your opinion is to be taken seriously here.

Edit to add:



My Colt will reliably load empty cases from the magazine. It's the only way I can force a malfunction, to drill with it. Forcing a failure to fire because it's a spent casing is the most expedient way I can get a "malfunction" because otherwise I can limp wrist, run it "too dry" or "too wet" or dirty as hell and I can't get it to fail.

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2 examples. Bwaa haha. That's cute. If I only had 2 examples of bad 1911's, I wouldn't be preaching to stay away from cheapo 1911's, would I? Yeah, I like spending twice as much to get a decent 1911 on the 1st attempt. Come on. There's plenty of further info on the net for you to read. People that know me on here, know my stuff works.

Let me ask you this. Right now. Would you let your FAMILY defend themselves with a brand new Kimber? Or would you try to find something better?

This has devolved into a screaming match, so we're done.