Fighting shotgun recommendations

The traditional choices are usually a Mossberg 500 or Rem 870. Other shotguns would work as well but I don't know the supernova that well. As best I understand is that the 870 express can be a bit rough and you'd likely enjoy the wingmaster better.

^I have both. Unless you want the aesthetics, the Express is fine.

My Main HD Shotguns

I went:
1. Mossberg 500A (choice of pistol grip only or full stock) 12 gauge 18 1/2"
for max. defense, and
2. Remington 870 (Youth Model) 20 gauge 18 1/2" for min. light carry.
Both of the above have slings.

oneounceload:
I definitely agree that a pump may not be the best option in several realms of shotgunning; however, I chose the pump specifically for certain reasons. My reason for getting a shotgun is to make me a good shotgunner no matter what shotgun make/model/type I happen to be using. Given this I wanted to get a shotgun that would be the hardest to master. My reasoning is that if I can master a pump, then I could transfer skills easier to semi-autos, SxS, etc rather than starting with a semi-auto and going to everything else. In other words I want a pump because it is harder, specifically because I expect it to be a challenge and be a learning experience.

Click to expand...

A pump is a great compromise that excels at nothing but works decently enough for some applications.

YOU need to decide what is important to you and go from there. I prefer to have a few different guns to serve different uses; and in doing so I have guns that are "mission specific"

I have both the Remy 870 and a benelli super nova tactical both are good , but the super nova is my baby.

Read, exhaustively :

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=355528 One of my favorite threads of all time on THR, and an enduring legacy from a great shotgunner.

If I had to have only one, it would probably be a Mossberg 590a1. Thankfully, im not in that position. Since it sounds like you might be, let me chip in my two Lincolns:

So in this case, specifically for trap/skeet/clays is it really best to get a second shotgun separate from any fighting shotgun one may have? You make it sound like skeet/trap folks have a shotgun dedicated to that specific purpose rather than use a common model...

Click to expand...

However, a standard mossy 500 security combo gets you not only a nice 18.5" security barrel, but a quality vent rib sporting barrel for an amazing price; while also including a pistol grip if you'd like to play around with that configuration. (#3, if thats something that still concerns you) Here's a link to it. Arguably ( but with difficulty ) one of the best values in shotguns on the market right now. Defensive when not in the field, and an adjustable choke synthetic stock field gun thats suitable for anything you'd need to hunt with or play clay games. Hard to beat. When you get really serious about competition shotguns, you'll probably need something else to consistently get 25's. It sounds like that may be a way down the road for you though, so getting something that gets you going is probably more important than that right now.

is it really best to get a second shotgun separate from any fighting shotgun one may have?

Click to expand...

Most certainly do. Generally what makes a great defensive gun makes a passable game/target gun, and vice versa. With a basic setup allowing both types of use, you should be able to figure out what features you'd really like ina clay games gun, and a serious business weapon, without breaking the bank. Most serious gunners usually have a general field gun, a games gun, and a defensive gun, and likely several very specific field guns for different game/hunting styles they enjoy.

I'd recommend letting a friend or two let you use their "fightin' shotty" to see what sight configuration works best for you. Thats so personal, its really hard to say. I've used plenty of pumps and autoloaders, and I still prefer a pump for defensive purposes. Don't get me wrong, fast autoloading is great in the field, but i've had enough failures to cycle with even factory ammo that it gives me pause. Hard to dance away from rock-solid reliability in all conditions when its your skin on the line, but again, a personal choice through and through.

On sights, if at the end of the day you can't get it done with a basic bead in CQ for defense, you need to train more. However, light conditions might drive you to choose a light gathering bead, if you need to, go for it. There is a world of difference in sight / target picture on moving sporting clays/trap -vs- man sized targets at danger distances in and around the home/auto. I'd strongly recommend a beginners defensive shotgun class. Usually run you about $200, and about 400 rounds of shells. Certainly worth every penny, and it will allow you to find spots in your "operation" that you need to most improve on.

Good luck.

Maxon's in Des Plaines has a Mossberg 500 20 ga on its rental list. More variety would be better, but at least that indicates there is a conveniently located range that allows shotguns. Before someone here talks you into a semi-auto, make sure you're familiar with the Cook County Assault weapons ban. There are a number of attributes that can get you in trouble.

I don't know much about shotguns, but i do know two things. Listen to these guys who tell you that a clays/trap/skeet gun is going to be very different from a defensive gun. Especially if you like a pistol gripped stock (NOT pistol grip only). These stocks are great for what they're intended, but very, very poor for wingshooting.

Avoid pistol grip only guns. This was made for breaching, somebody thought it looked cool, now millions of nearly useless shotguns have been sold to people who have no clue they've bought half a breaching tool. Muzzles are usually wrong.

A shotgun is a mechanical device and requires maintenance. However, a well made pump gun is the most reliable, most versatile, most durable design. As mentioned, it excels at nothing but does so many things acceptably that it stands nearly alone.

oneounceload said:

Sorry to disagree - the pump is a compromise and a poor one at that........I'd go with a gas gun for greater reliability and less recoil

Click to expand...

I'm a gunsmith who actually started out working on 1100's to keep them firing at the trap range. Word got around I knew how to work on shotguns, and particularly semi-autos, next thing you know, I'm fixing rifles and pistols, too. But I digress.

I disagree with your comment; A beginner should definitely start with the simplest system (pump) first, develop skills with that, and maybe then think about changing to a semi-auto, if that's what they want. Beats being handed an old 1100 that won't fire three rounds at ducks without jamming and being told, "Well, fix it, then!" Sink or swim is no way to learn, especially with a fighting shotgun. I never set that 1100 up for HD/SD, and I'm sure glad I never had to trust my life to it. All I lost because of it malfunctioning is a few duck dinners. I bought an 870 shortly after my 18th birthday, and gave the 1100 back to my Dad.

The small amount of recoil reduction from a gas system is not enough benefit to risk failure from lack of/improper maintenance by an inexperienced user. Now if you are talking an experienced, motivated, well-trained operator, the action type will be of no consequence; they will have the training to deal with any problems; yet still, the vast majority of users of shotguns in a fighting environmant choose pumps, and exactly for the reason of reliability. Also, the ability to fire munitions that will not cycle a semi is another good reason.

The only malfunctions I personally have ever had with an 870 is from operator error, i.e., short shucking. The only other malfuntions I have ever seen on any 870 besides that is the infamous 'double feed', or shell stuck between the carrier and bolt, and this is caused by an extreme lack of maintenance in not replacing the feed latches before failure. (or not pushing shells far enough up into the magazine, again; operator error)

For a semi-auto for someone who has mastered the basics with a pump, I would recommend a Benelli M (1,2,4, 1014) before any gas-operated shotgun. Indeed, I would recommend the A-5 or Rem. M11 before a gas operated semi. The Saiga shotguns would be about the only gas-operated shotguns I would recommend, and that mostly because I prefer AK's to AR's (Again, reliability), and the added capacity. While extremely familiar with the 1100/11-87 systems, I cannot recommend them, or any other shotgun that relies on a fragile O-ring to function. (That ring in my wallet as a young man was not from a condom...) I won't go into what a PITA it is to scrape carbon from the port and rings on an 1100/-87....

I don't know much about shotguns, but i do know two things. Listen to these guys who tell you that a clays/trap/skeet gun is going to be very different from a defensive gun. Especially if you like a pistol gripped stock (NOT pistol grip only). These stocks are great for what they're intended, but very, very poor for wingshooting.

Click to expand...

I'm not sold on that. I routinely shoot the same average with my SpeedFeed III pistolgrip 870 as I did with the Wingmasters or the TB I shot trap with. 23/25 either way. 16 yards or handicap, doesn't seem to make a difference.

Shotguns are illegal under the Rules of Land Warfare treaties.

Really I had a issued one in Nam.

Doesn't really matter USA never signed either of those . Those were rules written for warring countries in Europe .

I do have some feedback regarding different sighting options that kind of fits with what you are trying to do. Not that long ago I shot back to back my Mossberg 500 28" barrel with bead and then my 590 with ghost ring sights. Trap range wasn't crowded so I want in a rush. I hit 24/25 with the bead, of course missing the last bird (mental thing as I haven't hit 25/25 yet). Then did the 590 (typically my second round is better as I'm a bit warmed up). I hit 17 or 18 out of 25. While not bad, it was quite obvious to me I could see the clays much better with the bead.

My point is that I think you are correct that swapping out barrels will suit you well. I like ghost rings on shotguns and rifles for self defense and beads for clays. Having a platform that let's you swap out barrels for different style sights really helps with multi purpose use. If I had to choose just one style sight on the shotgun as I know I can use well in all styles of shooting. Luckily you and I don't have to be forced to one style.

Depends on budget. I like having the manual control of a pump but you can't go wrong with a semi-auto either.

Right now you can get a used Wingmaster riot gun for about $200.

There's a few great guns out there that have stood the test of time, and the 870 and 500 are in the elite spots for budget reliable riot guns. Or you can drop $1000 on some uber custom gas gun.

But they all reliably throw lots of lead and are still premier self defense and home defense weapons.

A beginner should definitely start with the simplest system

Click to expand...

If that was truly the best advice, then a nice BT-99 single shot trap gun would be the choice; and for trap singles, it is a good choice, but it sucks for HD. I watched folks short shuck two different pumps at a fun shoot - the little bit of excitement in a fun setting was enough to make the jam the gun, eject live ammo, have more fails to feed, etc.
Make that an intense HD scenario where fear ha replaced a fun setting and the potential for disaster is even greater.

Sorry, I'll take a semi for a first gun for both HD and fun...............and I have a 500 in the closest for HD use

Reminds me of the steel challenge for shotgun matches our club used to have.
Seeing how fast some of the pump guys are, one of the guys decides to try one, instead of his tried and true auto loader.
So he goes out and buys a real nice pump for the next match.
At the sound of the buzzer, he hits the first target and then stands there pulling the trigger, over and over, with no results.
Lots of folks hollering "Pump it, pump it!"
The next match he shows up with his auto loader.
I still prefer the pump mostly.
The only auto loaders I've ever had have been 1100s and they've never let me down.
But they have always been maintained at least as well as my car.

a good auto shotgun would be my choice if I had the money. if I could be guaranteed the use of both hands/arms then a pump wouldn't be such a bad choice.

There's always the one handed pump technique, often seen in movies.
And it does work with some practice.
But any shotgun would be a real handful one handed.

What about clip or tube fed bolt actions?

In my opinion, and I'll admit limited knowledge about shotgunning and it's associated voodoo, they are a distant follower for desired action type.

Autoloaders and pumps have the advantage of not breaking the grip when the action is working. With a bolt, the firing hand has to move, which often means the shotgun is moved off plane of the target.

For slugs or small game where one shot at a time is expected, this is fine. There are some stupid accurate slugs guns out there built on bolt actions. But for wingshooting, trap or skeet and defensive use, I'd choose a lot of other options before a bolt action shotgun.

oneounceload said:

If that was truly the best advice, then a nice BT-99 single shot trap gun would be the choice; and for trap singles, it is a good choice, but it sucks for HD. I watched folks short shuck two different pumps at a fun shoot - the little bit of excitement in a fun setting was enough to make the jam the gun, eject live ammo, have more fails to feed, etc.
Make that an intense HD scenario where fear ha replaced a fun setting and the potential for disaster is even greater.

Sorry, I'll take a semi for a first gun for both HD and fun...............and I have a 500 in the closest for HD use

Click to expand...

That's why I said pump. I thought it obvious enough not to have to be stated. Obviously we agree a single-shot is not a good fighting shotgun, though indeed, I can be scarily deadly with a BT-99. Tell ya what; I'll split the difference with you; a double barrel would be easy to learn with, and many people do use them for SD/HD. I define a 'fighting' shotgun as one that would be chosen by someone knowing they were going into a gunfight;
The vast majority of the time, it is a pump. Some choose semi-autos, a few choose double barrels. Not too many people knowingly go into a gunfight with a single shot shotgun, and come out alive. I sure wouldn't want to try, skill with a BT-99 aside.

Your bias is showing in your final sentence. "........and I have a 500 in the closet for HD use." You require a pump, but will saddle people learning new techniques with a complex mechanism that is much more prone to failure than the tried and true pump. Put your money where your mouth is and pick up an old 1100, don't have it gone over, just load it up and stick it in your closet. I noticed I didn't see the word 'gas' in this post. If we exclude the word 'gas', and allow the words 'inertia-driven' or 'recoil operated', then I might agree.

Or we could just both get SPAS 12's and be done with it.

I'm not sold on the inertia guns. I know a guy named Ron, serious waterfowler. Had to have one the Benelli guns when they came out. He can make it malfunction on command. He uses it a lot for hunting but keeps a pump for house work.

Obviously we agree a single-shot is not a good fighting shotgun

Click to expand...

No, we do not.

Your bias is showing in your final sentence. "........and I have a 500 in the closet for HD use." You require a pump, but will saddle people learning new techniques with a complex mechanism that is much more prone to failure than the tried and true pump. Put your money where your mouth is and pick up an old 1100, don't have it gone over, just load it up and stick it in your closet. I noticed I didn't see the word 'gas' in this post. If we exclude the word 'gas', and allow the words 'inertia-driven' or 'recoil operated', then I might agree.

Click to expand...

No bias at all....bought a 500 PGO back when I was young and stupid like many here (before Uncle Al's Internet) Can't remember the last time I actually fired it. I own 2 gas guns (Berettas) for sporting clays and O/U and SxS guns as well. I owned an 1100 - nothing but issues, but when it worked (it WAS a 28 gauge) it was fun.
The only pump I might consider would be an original Win 42 - and that would be for grins and giggles.

The BT-99m is a TRAP gun single shot, NOT a fighting gun. NO single shot should a "fighting gun" - that term is ludicrous in any event.

And this statement

You require a pump, but will saddle people learning new techniques with a complex mechanism that is much more prone to failure than the tried and true pump

Click to expand...

is pure BS

Mossberg 500 & Remington 870 Pistol Grip Options

Unless you are : young, strong, intelligent, well versed in shooting shotguns, and shoot them often - DO NOT SHOOT A 12 GAUGE WITH A PISTOL GRIP!!!!
I know it looks "COOL" on the screen, but it can really hurt otherwise!!!
About 10 years ago (my how time flies), I shot my Mossberg 500A with a pistol grip. Man, I thought my thumb and wrist was broken (it wasn't, but it felt like it). I went home and put the full stock on, and there it stays (and I saved the pistol grip for one who meets the above qualifications).
You can do the same thing with the full stock, held between your waist and hip, and have more control of the weapon. The only time a pistol grip could come in handy is in close confines, such as a car. Otherwise, your wrist and/or thumb may be (or feel like it is) broken. What good will it do you then?
That said, I'm going to go, in my wheelchair, to the nurses' station . I heard they have ice cream!!!
Just kidding guys, but sometimes I feel like that.

BluesDancer said:

Given this I wanted to get a shotgun that would be the hardest to master. My reasoning is that if I can master a pump, then I could transfer skills easier to semi-autos, SxS, etc rather than starting with a semi-auto and going to everything else. In other words I want a pump because it is harder, specifically because I expect it to be a challenge and be a learning experience.

Click to expand...

Then get something a little ... "different":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaztoqH5HFM

(It should be apparant that I need a little more practice with my "Tacticool Hat".) Note that I shoot for *fun* - I generally come in last in our comps... But I reck'n that I has a lot more *fun* than the others...

In addition to the Chiappa 1887, I use an Ithaca M37 DSPS for PSG but, unfortunately, all of my Ithacas are in need of spares at the moment (read my username). I have a Remington 870 Wingmaster for clays but my first love is PSG.

For PSG, in the UK, at least, the pump world is dominated my the Super Nova; last year, I shot a club competition and I was in a squad of six. I was the *only* one *not* using a Super Nova. 'Nuff said.

Now and then, club members buy a box-fed (Saiga, Bora, whatever) but, so far at least, I've never seen one shoot *reliably*. However, there are more affordable box-feds coming onto the (UK) market and so this may change as more people have a "play" with them.

Regards,

Mark.

P.S. I can see a parallel, here, with driving: if you learn to drive in a manual (stick-shift) car, then you can make the switch to an automatic with no trouble. If you learn in an auto, switching to a manual may be a little more troublesome. (As with my shotguns, my cars have all been "manually operated". )

Cool video Captain Chaos. We shoot in trap league a could of times per league from a chair just to mix things up. Interesting how having the lower body less mobile impacts the swing and getting onto clays.

Per the OP, I think you are doing the right thing researching. I read a book fix years ago or so called Paradox of Choice. Well worth reading and fundamentally changed the way I buy things including my home. The gist of the book is that more choices makes us less happy. Trying to find the best will almost guaranteed makes us unhappy and lead to buyers remorse. If we instead look for good (not the best) we are usually much more happy with the purchase.

For example, if you need a riflescope, I guarantee you will drive yourself nuts looking for the best. If you say, I want a good riflescope, it is easy. I and many others can rattle off good rifle scopes. I settled on Leupold scopes. I know they are good. I have been very happy with them. Are they the best? No clue and probably not but they are good. Would take lots of time and energy to sort it out.

Keep researching but not to the point of stressing out.