Courageous big game hunting runs afoul

X-Rap · Jul 29, 2015

The world is in total belief of news releases from a gov. run by a brutal dictator and the same is being spouted here as if it is gospel.
40 hrs?
Bow or crossbow? Poundage, range?
The man had a gov issued tag and was with a gov. licensed hunter correct?
Generally when quotas are mentioned it tends to be a dynamic system that can change over time often day to day, is there a gov printed proclamation similar to what we have here in the states outlining regulations or at you at the mercy of unscrupulous outfitters?

And by the way our favorite drive by moderator locked another thread I started expressly to avoid side tracking this thread, much of the reason I'm sure was due to members commenting on the ethics of the Dr rather than the topic of the thread.

Nom de Forum · Jul 29, 2015

ClickClickD'oh said:
Well, that's it... You've convinced me. It's clearly time to go to war, invade these nations, kill lots of people and seize their wildlife.

Killing to save something. What an interesting concept. Didn't we try something like that in Vietnam? You know the old "We had to destroy the village to save the village" strategy. Killing is rarely the best long term option and unfortunately instead of being the last option is often the first option only because it appears to be the immediate easiest solution.

It is unfortunate that sufficient revenue cannot be raised to protect African's megafauna to eliminate the need for hunting revenues. I think the group of people in this World who are favorably impressed by the achievements of trophy hunters is rapidly diminishing. In this World with every passing year fewer people remain that believe trophy hunting dangerous game is an act of courage or admirable skill.

X-Rap · Jul 29, 2015

What I'm suggesting, is that the hunters that are hunting for conservation, realize that there may be a better way to conserve the species and donate whatever money they were going to use for the hunt and make the hunting guides patrol for poachers and do other activities to ensure the survival of the local wildlife.

So as "hunters" you want us to save our money and donate it so we can't "hunt" to support wildlife for the enjoyment of others?
That happens in every state of the union already, hunters pay extra taxes in addition to license for their sport but a bird watcher is off the hook and can pursue their hobby on land that hunters probably bought and pay to maintain.

X-Rap · Jul 29, 2015

It is unfortunate that sufficient revenue cannot be raised to protect African's megafauna to eliminate the need for hunting revenues. I think the group of people in this World who are favorably impressed by the achievements of trophy hunters is rapidly diminishing. In this World with every passing year fewer people remain that believe trophy hunting dangerous game is an act of courage or admirable skill.

Hey I have an idea, go to the lady who wants to buy a Lamborghini with the proceeds of her sales of body parts and get her to donate to your cause. I think the money pool there is always expanding.

rcmodel · Jul 29, 2015

As a hunter for almost 60 years.

My first hunting rule is if some named it Cesil, or something, don't shoot it!!

rc

Nom de Forum · Jul 29, 2015

X-Rap said:
And by the way our favorite drive by moderator locked another thread I started expressly to avoid side tracking this thread, much of the reason I'm sure was due to members commenting on the ethics of the Dr rather than the topic of the thread.

My guess is that Moderator Robert realized your other thread was unnecessary and likely an attempt to obfuscate the issue with another thread about "We are so misunderstood and it is all the mainstream medias fault/The mainstream media is more harmful than beneficial to the country."

Art Eatman · Jul 29, 2015

If the meat is eaten, what's wrong with limiting yourself to a trophy animal instead of one that is merely average?

From what I've read, any kill in Africa is eaten by the locals. THR members who have hunted in Africa have said so, right here in this forum.

In the U.S., it's a fairly serious crime to waste the meat of a game animal--and that's a fairly rare thing as far as legal hunters.

So complaining about "trophy hunters" is silly. The highly-emotional antipathy seems to come mostly from those who don't hunt at all--or who know nothing about what's actually involved in hunting.

CraigC · Jul 29, 2015

It is unfortunate that sufficient revenue cannot be raised to protect African's megafauna to eliminate the need for hunting revenues.

And why would we want to do that?

In this World with every passing year fewer people remain that believe trophy hunting dangerous game is an act of courage or admirable skill.

Is that why we hunt Africa, because of what people think??? We live in the world that made Kim Kardashian famous because of a leaked sex tape. Do we really care what the mindless sheep think???

The saddest part is that we live in a world where shooting and hunting are mutually exclusive to the point that many shooters side with the anti-hunters on these issues.

What I'm suggesting, is that the hunters that are hunting for conservation, realize that there may be a better way to conserve the species and donate whatever money they were going to use for the hunt and make the hunting guides patrol for poachers and do other activities to ensure the survival of the local wildlife. If the money continues to flow into the country, I don't see hunting as a nessesity for preservation. Jobs and food will help alleviate the poaching issue.

Yes, I'm going to save my money for two or three years, because I've dreamed of hunting dangerous game in Africa for all my life and then just donate it to some "conservation organization" in a third world country. Did you actually think about that before you posted it?

The highly-emotional antipathy seems to come mostly from those who don't hunt at all--or who know nothing about what's actually involved in hunting.

Bingo! I argue with anti-hunters all the time and they are universally ignorant of what we do or why. If they weren't, they wouldn't believe so much crap that isn't true. They operate solely on misconception and emotion. They hate us for imagined reasons.

oneounceload · Jul 29, 2015

So as "hunters" you want us to save our money and donate it so we can't "hunt" to support wildlife for the enjoyment of others?
That happens in every state of the union already, hunters pay extra taxes in addition to license for their sport but a bird watcher is off the hook and can pursue their hobby on land that hunters probably bought and pay to maintain.

Exactly - DU has spent more on conservation than all of the lib animal "rights" have en toto

ATLDave · Jul 29, 2015

I do a bit of hunting. I'm not an avid hunter, but I have no opposition/objection to hunting abundant species. Want to go shoot a Cape Buffalo? Great, hope you bag a big one (with a humane kill) and that it's delicious.

Want to go shoot endangered or highly-pressured animals? We're not friends. Want to do it unethically, illegally, and incompetently, so that the animal suffers and the population does too? Get off my planet.

ATLDave · Jul 29, 2015

oneounceload said:
Exactly - DU has spent more on conservation than all of the lib animal "rights" have en toto

That's exactly right. And DU and DU-members generally have ZERO patience for people who hunt ducks out of season, or using illegal punt guns, or beyond their limits, or in a forbidden area, or....

Hunters are natural-born conservationists. When one of them strays from that path, it's an aberration. A mutation. A cancer on the community.

akv3g4n · Jul 29, 2015

Craig-

The arguments that I'm seeing to excuse the hunting of endangered species is that its such a good conservation measure. So, yes, if all of these trophy hunters are doing this for conservation of the species and not just so they said that they shot a lion while they're still able to, really work on conserving the habitat and animals. If you just want to shoot something exotic for a head on the wall, well, I'm not sure there's much of an argument needed. Most people are on my side for that justification.

Nom de Forum · Jul 29, 2015

Art Eatman said:
If the meat is eaten, what's wrong with limiting yourself to a trophy animal instead of one that is merely average?

From what I've read, any kill in Africa is eaten by the locals. THR members who have hunted in Africa have said so, right here in this forum.

In the U.S., it's a fairly serious crime to waste the meat of a game animal--and that's a fairly rare thing as far as legal hunters.

So complaining about "trophy hunters" is silly. The highly-emotional antipathy seems to come mostly from those who don't hunt at all--or who know nothing about what's actually involved in hunting.

What is silly about trophy hunting is that anyone thinks it conveys any positive qualities of character. It is really about enjoying killing and sharing that enjoyment of displaying the results with others of similar temperament. Feeding the locals with meat from a trophy kill is not critical to the locals survival and is really only an emotionally satisfying and conscience suppressing act of salvage.

BTW - I have hunted. Have eaten my kills. I am well aware of game laws.

jrdolall · Jul 29, 2015

Sorry but I refuse to believe that the guy is guilty because an anti-hunting publication used rhetoric designed to inflame the situation beyond what has actually occurred. If anyone is guilty then that will be determined by the Zimbabwe(an) authorities.

These animals exist because sportsmen want to hunt them. If not then the native Africans would long ago have killed the last lion, rhino and elephant. If you don't believe that then you are beyond delusional.

I don't care if you approve of big game hunting, deer hunting, rabbit hunting or squirrel hunting. If this guy was hunting legally, with a valid permit then he is fine in my book. As I said earlier, I wouldn't pay $5 to go shoot a lion but that doesn't mean I would deny the sport to people who want to participate. The decimation of these animals has not been caused by legal hunters but by poaching and habitat destruction.

Some of you guys sound like the crowd that always says "I wouldn't mind paying more taxes if...". Fine. Pay more taxes. If you want to support wildlife habitat restoration then get some guys together and buy some land somewhere and high fence it to keep out poachers. I hope you have VERY deep pockets. Have you ever seen a lion or an elephant eat?

sage5907 · Jul 29, 2015

"As a hunter for almost 60 years.

My first hunting rule is if some named it Cesil, or something, don't shoot it!!

rc"

I totally agree with rc!

X-Rap · Jul 29, 2015

Feeding the locals with meat from a trophy kill is not critical to the locals survival and is really only an emotionally satisfying and conscience suppressing act of salvage

Wow, that statement is full of crap, unless of course you are counting the food that the local warlords allows the UN to pass out after they have taken their share.
I pointed out earlier a story I couldn't post http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...for-obscene-91st-birthday-party-10077805.html
Havent heard a peep of outrage about this but the Dr has had his life turned upside down and even has the MN state legislature acting against him.

Nom de Forum · Jul 29, 2015

CraigC said:
And why would we want to do that?

Click to expand...

For the same reasons that we spend money on other things that have no real value other than the pleasure of their continued existence.

Is that why we hunt Africa, because of what people think??? We live in the world that made Kim Kardashian famous because of a leaked sex tape. Do we really care what the mindless sheep think???

Click to expand...

I have no doubt that what other people think does have some influence on why you hunt. Your denying it is a denial of an integral part of being a human who is not a sociopath. I am sure the challenge, anticipation, uncertainty of success, adrenaline rush, and sense of domination are also some integral factors of the reason for why people hunt for trophy animals.

The saddest part is that we live in a world where shooting and hunting are mutually exclusive to the point that many shooters side with the anti-hunters on these issues.

Click to expand...

The saddest part is that we live in a world where shooting and hunting are mutually exclusive to the point that many hunters (Fudds) side with the antigunners on issues. Wake-up Craig, if you expect your friends to agree with you 100% of the time you will have no friends.

Yes, I'm going to save my money for two or three years, because I've dreamed of hunting dangerous game in Africa for all my life and then just donate it to some "conservation organization" in a third world country. Did you actually think about that before you posted it?

Click to expand...

You can still hunt the dangerous game without killing it. Ever heard of a photo safari?

Bingo! I argue with anti-hunters all the time and they are universally ignorant of what we do or why. If they weren't, they wouldn't believe so much crap that isn't true. They operate solely on misconception and emotion. They hate us for imagined reasons.

Click to expand...

You can be anti-trophy hunting and not be anti-hunting.

Nom de Forum · Jul 29, 2015

rcmodel said:
As a hunter for almost 60 years.

My first hunting rule is if some named it Cesil, or something, don't shoot it!!

rc

Ditto. I also would make sure if I was anywhere near the vicinity of a "Cecil" I would make damn sure I had 100% identification that my target could not possibly be a "Cecil".

Nom de Forum · Jul 29, 2015

X-Rap said:
Wow, that statement is full of crap, unless of course you are counting the food that the local warlords allows the UN to pass out after they have taken their share.
I pointed out earlier a story I couldn't post http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...for-obscene-91st-birthday-party-10077805.html
Havent heard a peep of outrage about this but the Dr has had his life turned upside down and even has the MN state legislature acting against him.

LMAO that you think anyone is going to believe providing meat from trophies makes a damn bit of meaningful difference! X-rap just how many tons of trophy meat do you think are being provided annually to sustain these people! :scrutiny:

H&Hhunter · Jul 29, 2015

leadcounsel said:
Sadly this statement fails to take facts into account. I'll trust National Geographic instead, which states:

Since the 1940s, when lions numbered an estimated 450,000, lion populations have blinked out across the continent. Now they may total as few as 20,000 animals. Scientists connect the drastic decreases in many cases to burgeoning human populations.

Yep, that's a very small number indeed.

Strangely National Geographic, and other leading experts on the topic, don't suggest going to kill one and mount the head. Instead, they want donations to organizations that will protect these animals, study them, and create sustainable habitats and prevent their being killed. Gosh, how weird.

Thank you to all of the brave "hunters" who have killed these and other majestic animals for sport. :banghead:

Yet another example of complete ignorance in regards to the benefits of sport hunting. Hunting blocks AKA concessions are huge tracks of land that can not be developed and have very low human populations. The one and ONLY thing that keeps these tracks of land open and wild are the revenue derived from hunting. Take that revenue away and the land becomes inhabited by people. Those people in turn kill off all of the animals for bush meat. Next thing you know there are no lions left and you WIN!! Your end game leadcounsel is the absolute decimation of wildlife in Africa. Every single time animal rights groups have won in Africa wild life has lost. Unfortunately as you keep mentioning you have popular opinion on your side.

Nom de Forum · Jul 29, 2015

H&Hhunter said:
Yet another example of complete ignorance in regards to the benefits of sport hunting. Hunting blocks AKA concessions are huge tracks of land that can not be developed and have very low human populations. The one and ONLY thing that keeps these tracks of land open and wild are the revenue derived from hunting. Take that revenue away and the land becomes inhabited by people. Those people in turn kill off all of the animals for bush meat. Next thing you know there are no lions left and you WIN!! Your end game leadcounsel is the absolute decimation of wildlife in Africa. Every single time animal rights groups have won in Africa wild life has lost. Unfortunately as you keep mentioning you have popular opinion on your side.

Which means it is not really that much money compared to the amount of money that is spent by people around the World on other things preserved only for the pleasure they provide. The creation of a sufficient funding mechanism is all that is needed to eliminate the need for subsidy through hunting fees and associated revenue.

H&Hhunter · Jul 29, 2015

Nom de Forum said:
LMAO that you think anyone is going to believe providing meat from trophies makes a damn bit of meaningful difference! X-rap just how many tons of trophy meat do you think are being provided annually to sustain these people!

Inside of the hunting blocks almost 100% of the meat consumed by villagers is from safari hunting. You seem to be an authority on the subject so I'm guessing that the safari blocks you've been to in southern Africa were different than the ones I've been in? Please share your experiences.

The point being that meat is only one small benefit. Game management, land preservation, anti poaching, employment and huge unfettered blocks of land where animals can flourish with minimal human intrusion and only excess numbers are hunted. These are the primary reasons why sport hunting has been the primary ally to African wildlife.

H&Hhunter · Jul 29, 2015

Nom de Forum said:
Which means it is not really that much money compared to the amount of money that is spent by people around the World on other things preserved only for the pleasure they provide. The creation of a sufficient funding mechanism is all that is needed to eliminate the need for subsidy through hunting fees and associated revenue.

And who is going to do that? Animal rights groups have proved time and again that they are not interested in conservation or management. Hunting is what pays the bill for many parks and reserves too BTW.

gspn · Jul 29, 2015

I have no strong opinion on this either way...but I do wonder why there is such vitriol from those against it?

In this thread I've seen the hunter in this incident derided for being rich, for being too stupid to know how to spend his money, someone posted a comedians routine suggesting that the only way the hunter can get an erection is by killing (What?!?!?). He has been called a coward. People have put him down as merely a "shooter" and not a "hunter".

What is the point of all this name calling? Can't one make their point without resorting to such silliness? Is the name calling supposed to sway someone over to your point of view? In my case it's failing miserably. Facts and educated opinion are very useful tools....playground name-calling is counter productive.

Interestingly enough, Teddy Roosevelt...a brave stud warrior and a great leader of this country...a man who if you called him anything less than a man would probably rise from the grave and smack you in the mouth...he took a safari back in the day and killed over 500 animals...including 17 lions.

I personally know several combat veterans who fought in wars ranging from WWII to our current wars who have nothing to prove, and certainly lack nothing in the courage department, who routinely go on African safari's. Calling men like that "cowards" is best done on the internet...where you won't have to back the statement up.

I do enjoy hearing reasoned arguments on both sides...I'm actually learning a lot about African game and hunting from this thread...but it's getting absolutely polluted with hate rather than facts.

CraigC · Jul 29, 2015

The arguments that I'm seeing to excuse the hunting of endangered species is that its such a good conservation measure. So, yes, if all of these trophy hunters are doing this for conservation of the species and not just so they said that they shot a lion while they're still able to, really work on conserving the habitat and animals. If you just want to shoot something exotic for a head on the wall, well, I'm not sure there's much of an argument needed. Most people are on my side for that justification.

Dude, we hunt because we love to hunt. I don't know who exactly you think you're talking about, perhaps super rich Warren Buffet types who can literally throw away $50,000 without batting an eye. Sure, they represent 'some' of those who hunt Africa but most are every day working stiffs like me. People who have to save their money for years to be able to afford a hunt for one of the Big 6. Sorry but I'm not going to do that and neither are you. If you're such a benevolent soul that you would do that, let's see the receipts. Until then, you're just casting empty words and pissing in the wind.

Secondly, they are not endangered species. I don't know where this comes from, although it's almost always spewed by anti-hunting activists. What is more important than their conservation status is the population in a specific habitat or region. This is where the phenomena known as GAME MANAGEMENT comes into play. Where numbers are reduced where needed and left alone where needed.

What is silly about trophy hunting is that anyone thinks it conveys any positive qualities of character.

Again, I really don't care what it conveys about my character, especially in the eyes of someone who is going to hate me regardless.

I have no doubt that what other people think does have some influence on why you hunt.

And how exactly are you able to ascertain that about a stranger on the internet? Are you so arrogant as to claim that you know me better than I do? Does your head fit through a standard sized door?

You can still hunt the dangerous game without killing it. Ever heard of a photo safari?

That does not appeal to me. If it does it for you, more power to you. Fact is that eco-tourism does not provide enough capital to adequately fund anti-poaching efforts. Nor is it applicable to all areas.

You can be anti-trophy hunting and not be anti-hunting.

I don't think you know or understand the difference.

Courageous big game hunting runs afoul

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