Removing Manufacturer's Name

I was just informed via Email from an FFL that such removal is a felony.

I was just informed via Email from an FFL that such removal is a felony.

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It may also be a violation of state law. In my state, Alabama, it is a violation to remove any markings that identify the manufacturer or importer of a firearm from any part of the firearm( not just the receiver). That may or may not be true for Ohio.

If I was going to do something like you plan, I would call the nearest ATF offfice and ask the question. The fact that you intend to engrave the information may make it perfectly legal. You might simply engrave over the etched script so that technically you didn't remove anything.

USC 922(k) said:

It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly [...] to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

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Art said:

I was just informed via Email from an FFL that such removal is a felony.

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Can they provide a cite for that?
USC only states serial number?

I believe Tye is correct. Here is the nearest Ohio ATF Field Division.

Another consideration...I am assuming for a moment that it is legal in your location. Now, you remove the info and engrave it elsewhere on the gun...if you take that gun with you out of state then you may be in felony possession of an illegal weapon since you have altered it.

I can easily see this being the issue because manufacturers do not cooperate on serializing guns. So you may have umpteen different 1911s in the state of Ohio with the same serial. So if Jimbo and Steve each have 1911 with serial 123456, Jimbo owns the Kimber and Steve owns the Taurus. Jimbo gun gets stolen, and to hide the fact that it's stolen Wally the thief polished down the kimber info and engraved the taurus info...... I know that's a stretch but it is conceivable and sounds like something the ATF might actually come up with.

The manufacturers name, city, state (origin) and serial number are required to be marked on the gun.

The individual mfg'rs can not duplicate serial #s.

The mfg name and origin is required because it's possible that different mfg'rs may duplicate s/n's.

Taking all those into consideration, I believe Art is correct.

The law may only say "serial number" but when read in its entirety and in the context of the intent of the requirement, IMO, you'll go to jail for 10 years or lose everything you've worked for fighting it.... or both!!!!

But... you'll have a prettier gun until you get caught

If it's not legal to remove it, why wouldn't that also make it illegal to put a Springfield slide on a Colt 1911.... That is where their (Colts) information is, while on a Springfield it's on the frame.

You would be "removing" it by replacing the slide, right?

I know, I'm trying to apply to logic to gun laws.

You can apply for a "marking variance" which could allow for a symbol.

Colts do have symbols on the frame which is allowed to meet the marking requirement provided that they get approval 1st.

I don't agree with all this.

I agree it is illegal to deface, or alter the serial number.

But there is no law against re-barreling a rifle and tossing the old barrel with the manufactures name, address, and model number with a new barrel with no markings on it.

The ATF law everyone is citing applies to manufactures and importers.
Not owners.

To my knowledge, there is no law against changing a slide, or re-barreling a rifle and losing the manufactures name, address, and model number stamped on the slide or barrel.

It's done everyday in custom gun builders shops.

rc

rcmodel said:

I don't agree with all this.

I agree it is illegal to deface, or alter the serial number.

But there is no law against re-barreling a rifle and tossing the old barrel with the manufactures name, address, and model number with a new barrel with no markings on it.

The ATF law everyone is citing applies to manufactures and importers.
Not owners.

To my knowledge, there is no law against changing a slide, or re-barreling a rifle and losing the manufactures name, address, and model number stamped on the slide or barrel.

It's done everyday in custom gun builders shops.

rc

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Once again RC nails it.

post #4 got it right.

Never can figure out why folks what to "deface" a weapon. In this case, just to look better.

Legally those markings aren't even on the gun.

The law may only say "serial number" but when read in its entirety and in the context of the intent....

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As soon as someone says "intent" as opposed to "as written"
I get real nervous. At that point rule of Law is out the
window and the latest political whim du jour rules.

Unless the ATF agent can cite counterveiling/superseding
legal authority to USC 922(k) noted above, he's talking
proof-by-strong-assertion/scare tactic as opposed to Law.

RCModel's example of common/everyday rebarreling is proof-in-point.

MEHavey said:

As soon as someone says "intent" as opposed to "as written"
I get real nervous. At that point rule of Law is out the
window and the latest political whim du jour rules.

Unless the ATF agent can cite counterveiling/superseding
legal authority to USC 922(k) noted above, he's talking
proof-by-strong-assertion/scare tactic as opposed to Law.

RCModel's example of common/everyday rebarreling is proof-in-point.

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I am not quite sure an ATF agents "word" is going to be enough to get you out of trouble if he happens to be wrong.

However I am sure that for a generous fee (enough to gouge a huge chunk of your wallet if not a piece of your leg) a good or maybe not so good lawer may be able to offer legal advice that may or may not be enough to get you out of a jam.

Once again, what is the Law ?
A statement by an Agent that is direct contravention of the Law as written is not Law.

If we start operating across the board by what someone thinks the Law ought to be
-- as opposed to what the Law is --- why bother with Law at all ?

On anything ?


.

Specifically,

5861(g)
(g) to obliterate, remove, change, or alter the serial number or other identification of a firearm required by this chapter; or

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It's in the NFA codes... I may be wrong as applying to regular guns. Or maybe not.

I won't be the test case though.

The slide isn't legally the gun so that wouldn't apply.

danez71 said:

Specifically,







It's in the NFA codes... I may be wrong as applying to regular guns. Or maybe not.



I won't be the test case though.

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NFA is a different critter.

danez71 said:

Specifically,



It's in the NFA codes... I may be wrong as applying to regular guns. Or maybe not.

I won't be the test case though.

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A 'firearm' as defined in the NFA is a Title II firearm.

A pistol is not, therefore the NFA code would not apply.

tyeo098, ljnowell - No sense pointing out to me something I already pointed out.




The OP's location is noted as Ohio.

Here' info specifically for Ohio.

2923.201 Possessing a defaced firearm.


(A) No person shall do either of the following:

(1) Change, alter, remove, or obliterate the name of the manufacturer, model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of identification on a firearm.

(2) Possess a firearm knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that the name of the manufacturer, model, manufacturer's serial number, or other mark of identification on the firearm has been changed, altered, removed, or obliterated.

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2923.11 Weapons control definitions.

As used in sections 2923.11 to 2923.24 of the Revised Code:

(A) "Deadly weapon" means any instrument, device, or thing capable of inflicting death, and designed or specially adapted for use as a weapon, or possessed, carried, or used as a weapon.

(B)
(1) "Firearm" means any deadly weapon capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant. "Firearm" includes an unloaded firearm, and any firearm that is inoperable but that can readily be rendered operable.

(2) When determining whether a firearm is capable of expelling or propelling one or more projectiles by the action of an explosive or combustible propellant, the trier of fact may rely upon circumstantial evidence, including, but not limited to, the representations and actions of the individual exercising control over the firearm.

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We can play lawyer and split hairs all day long.


Ultimately, it's not up to the OP or any one here whether he gets charged.


"Ratio legis est anima legis". Meaning - The reason of the law is the soul of the law

For example, the COTUS debates have largely been "Letter vs Spirit". The result is that the SCOTUS interprets what it says.


What we think really doesn't matter. What a D.A and the Judge does matter.


He's flirting with the law. Is a prettier gun worth it?


ETA: Looking at the pic again, it doesn't look like it meets the depth requirements - but I don't know how or if that would affect/apply to this situation. I'm not a lawyer... nor a Judge.

Again, Is a prettier gun worth the potential problems that it can create if a LEO officer sees it and makes an arrest with the mindset of 'let the wheels of justice sort it out'?

danez71 said:

tyeo098, ljnowell - No sense pointing out to me something I already pointed out.









The OP's location is noted as Ohio.



Here' info specifically for Ohio.

















We can play lawyer and split hairs all day long.





Ultimately, it's not up to the OP or any one here whether he gets charged.





"Ratio legis est anima legis". Meaning - The reason of the law is the soul of the law



For example, the COTUS debates have largely been "Letter vs Spirit". The result is that the SCOTUS interprets what it says.





What we think really doesn't matter. What a D.A and the Judge does matter.





He's flirting with the law. Is a prettier gun worth it?

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Good lord man, calm down, no one is pointing it out to you, you get to keep your pride. I was agreeing with you.