Anti-gun folks promote 'swatting' legal gun owners who are out in the public

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"My personal reaction to the scenarios:

- Anybody concealed carrying a handgun, no problem.

- Somebody open carrying either a handgun or a long gun in a rural area, no problem if they're not doing anything else that looks dangerous.

- Somebody (other than a SWAT team responding to an incident) open carrying a long gun in an urban environment, I would be extremely uncomfortable."

1) You can't have a 'personal reaction' to a concealed handgun

I didn't mean I would SEE it, I meant the CONCEPT.

2) Add a bullet point for a poorly-concealed handgun (and another for a hood-rat with the same)
3) Split open-carried handguns into "holstered" and "hand-held" categories, so that...
4) you can properly compare to rifles carried "slung/sheated" and "forward slung (on chest)" and "at ready (mag in, bolt forward, hand on grip/at trigger)" as separate categories

You are right on all three points.

5) Why on Earth would you feel 'comfortable' with a heavily-armed SWAT goon in proximity --he's there for a reason, after all (I'd be looking where he was looking, unless he looked bored and was picking his nose). Cops don't usually patrol with rifles, these days, unless they have a reason.

Really sorry to have written "shorthand". Of course I wouldn't be comfortable if something requiring a SWAT team were going on in my vicinity, what I meant was, I wouldn't be afraid the SWAT officer had bad intentions toward me.

It'd also be nice if people would define 'rural' and 'urban' when they say stuff like this for a change, since I'll bet you actually mean "anything but a wheat field." I live in a smallish town (25k) and the most hopping area is about as active as a surburban strip-mall center; a place many would be 'uncomfortable' with the presence of firearms. However, our actual city center is further north near the rail lines, and is the closest thing to a legitimately dangerous area around here (heck, it is dangerous of late).

Well, living in greater Los Angeles, I wouldn't call a town of 25,000 "urban", but I guess maybe it's also not "rural". In an area like downtown L.A. or NYC I would feel uncomfortable seeing people open carrying. Where I live is I guess "suburban" and I would still feel uncomfortable, but much less so if we're talking about a holstered handgun and otherwise respectable appearance. (I suppose "respectable" is subject to complaint also but basically the difference between somebody who looks like maybe a plumber between repair locations vs somebody with his pants halfway down his behind who looks stoned.)

The best practice is to avoid the area, but let's pretend I have to be there to settle a beef with the tax assessor. Tell me again why it's a bad idea to openly carry a gun A) where I would be most likely to need it, and B) where it would be most likely to have a deterring effect on the type of rational-thinking human predator opportunist most likely to accost me?

Well, I'm by far not any kind of tactical expert, but I would think two things: a) Some BG might decide to jump you just because he sees your gun, i.e. he thinks he can take it; and b) Being able to surprise a would-be assailant by producing your weapon from concealment could be an advantage.
 
"Not trying to get police to murder people, trying to commit murder using the police."
Important distinction. What CSGV is promoting is akin to suggesting they give gun owners directions down the wrong way of the local interstate in an attempt to have them killed. Why else would you bring in the local (armed) authorities with reports seeded with implied danger to their well being? These folks know darn well the difference between being actually threatened and making themselves uncomfortable through their bigotry (hint: they won't stick around to make a call if they actually feel threatened, they'll high-tail it out of there), so they are making a reasoned judgment call to bring in the cops upon you, based solely in their personal hatred of your presence/existence.

Just the most cowardly type of opportunistic murderer.

TCB
 
No, CGSV is not talking about SWATing people. That would be making a false report to get an emergency response. CGSV has not told anyone to make false reports.

So there's no anti-gun tactic or legislation that you won't defend?
 
So there's no anti-gun tactic or legislation that you won't defend?

I'm pointing out that the accusations in title of this thread do not match the quoted content from CSGV.

To say CSGV is trying to get gun owners killed is preposterous. Again, and I keep having to say this, image matters. Wild claims like those in this thread to not help our cause.

And again: anyone that makes false 911 calls should be prosecuted.
 
I'm pointing out that the accusations in title of this thread do not match the quoted content from CSGV.

To say CSGV is trying to get gun owners killed is preposterous. Again, and I keep having to say this, image matters. Wild claims like those in this thread to not help our cause.

And again: anyone that makes false 911 calls should be prosecuted.

Are you raising the question of negligence? Or are you accepting their statements at face value without regard to context?

So I have a question, since this is a little outside my experience....

Let's say Emory goes to a KKK meeting, and overhears people talking about how they'd like to see Those People killed, and he stands up and says, "Brothers, Brothers! Rather than this endless cycle of building and burning crosses, sprinkled with risky lynchings, why don't we use the law? We all know that there are no laws in place to do background checks or anything else on Those People, so you have no way of knowing if the one you spot walking down the street is going to the shop for some macaroons or preparing to rape our wimmenfolk...so when you see one, call 911 and report it as suspicious! Let the police sort out whether it was doing anything wrong!"

Obviously Emory has not explicitly advocated anything illegal. Right?

Then other KKK members at the meeting start saying things like, I'm going to call the cops and say, "black guy looks like he finished robbing a liquor store, I'm pretty sure he has a gun!", That way the cops will be able to make their own days.

At what point does Emory know too much about how his audience intends to use his ideas to really claim that his he is advocating something legal and safe? At what point is continued advocacy, even if you can't prove it was disingenuous, negligent because a reasonable person hearing how the audience is taking the message would understand that the advocacy is encouraging a dangerous condition?

Because the message the rank and file CTSGV people are hearing is, "We should pull a Ronald Ritchie on every open carrier we see."
 
To say CSGV is trying to get gun owners killed is preposterous.
"Preposterous" as in it states an uncomfortable truth?

ANY police interaction, even REQUESTED ones, can end in (and have ended in) deadly force inflicted on the citizen on the receiving end.

This is so EASILY foreseeable, that the element of malice is simply inescapable.

At BEST, the anti-gun cult simply doesn't CARE if lawful gun owners are killed. In FAR too many cases they have OPENLY wished for the deaths of lawful gun owners. There is simply not the slightest reason to attribute innocent motives to their actions, and any attempt to do so verges on the delusional.
 
"Here's a few thoughts for all that choose to carry legally.... If challenged by authorities "render unto Caesar" - that is be a good guy, do exactly what the officers command "

Not until i am placed under arrest. Then and only then do they have a right to tell me what to do.

I am polite when dealing with LEO's. And since we both carry hot weapons being polite is a great benefit on both sides of the issue. It has also preventing 3 tickets over the years.
 
I'm not a legal expert, but the yahoo coming in the door with the carbine at low ready would seem to be "brandishing" not "carrying" because of the aggressive posture.


Maybe too fine a distinction for some, but like with the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance, perhaps some judicious highly publicized prosecutions would help keep folks on the straight and narrow.

IMHO that yahoo deserves a day in court for stupidity -- same as the idiots arguing with cops over traffic stops, one moron in the news here recently thought it "racist" to get a warning ticket and managed to argue himself into an arrest. I agree the stop was mickey mouse, I was annoyed for a warning stop about going 58 in a 50 (on a downhill!) but there is no upside to making an issue of. If you really must, shut up, remember the badge number and file a complaint later.
 
I honestly have to wonder if part of the reason the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence is doing this may have to do with a deep seated anger towards certain cohorts or minority groups. Let's not forget the racism that is rooted in gun control...
 
I honestly have to wonder if part of the reason the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence is doing this may have to do with a deep seated anger towards certain cohorts or minority groups. Let's not forget the racism that is rooted in gun control...
My observation of and personal experience with White anti-gunners has shown me that a good many of them have attitudes and motivations indistinguishable from those of groups like the National Alliance and the Klan.

Their contempt for and visceral fear of Black people who cannot be controlled, and who have the ability to defend ourselves is palpable. I've been on the receiving end of the most popular racial slur for Black people from White, "liberal" anti-gunners AT LEAST as often as from neo-Nazis. If you're Black and WANT to have racial slurs hurled at you, refuse the ORDERS of a White anti-gunner to submissively endorse racially invidious gun controls.

Scratch an anti-gunner, find a Klansman.
 
My observation of and personal experience with White anti-gunners has shown me that a good many of them have attitudes and motivations indistinguishable from those of groups like the National Alliance and the Klan.

Their contempt for and visceral fear of Black people who cannot be controlled, and who have the ability to defend ourselves is palpable. I've been on the receiving end of the most popular racial slur for Black people from White, "liberal" anti-gunners AT LEAST as often as from neo-Nazis. If you're Black and WANT to have racial slurs hurled at you, refuse the ORDERS of a White anti-gunner to submissively endorse racially invidious gun controls.

Scratch an anti-gunner, find a Klansman.


I've seen it myself...people who are staunchly anti-gun seem to often automatically reason, 1) he's male, 2) he's Black, 3) he has a gun...so 1+2+3=he MUST be up to no good! "911! Black man has a gun! He's gonna kill someone! Save the children!" Ironically, most of these gun control people never stop talking about "tolerance."

I think quite a few people use "collective safety" or "the safety of the children" as a coverup for a deep-seated hatred against certain cohorts. In this sense, gun control then becomes a socially-acceptable tool of institutional discrimination. I would not be surprised if at least a sizable number of individuals on this gun control "coalition" are nothing more than closet racists who are OK with endangering the welfare of others to achieve their ultimate agendas, civil rights be damned.
 
I think quite a few people use "collective safety" or "the safety of the children" as a coverup for a deep-seated hatred against certain cohorts. In this sense, gun control then becomes a socially-acceptable tool of institutional discrimination. I would not be surprised if at least a sizable number of individuals on this gun control "coalition" are nothing more than closet racists who are OK with endangering the welfare of others to achieve their ultimate agendas, civil rights be damned.
I've seen enough OVERT demonstrations of racism by the anti-gun cult to know what the motivations are for a lot of them.

Reminds me of the elderly cleaner in a Lakewood, Ohio McDonald's.

He started berating me for my NRA ballcap, declaring that the NRA should be "banned". When I noted that the last time organizations started getting banned, we misplaced 6,000,000 Jews somewhere. His reply? That he "wasn't so sure that was such a bad thing".

Scratch an anti-gunner, find a Klansman... or a Nazi.
 
The one anti gun person I was tolerant of until I couldn't take his opinions any more was a felon ex friend of mine. He was constantly berating me for my gun collection.
What it boiled down to with him I found after a few conversations, "If I can't have them (as a felon) nobody should have them."

He was bitter about being a felon, hadn't come to terms with the fact that it was HIS actions that led to his situation (he was always complaining about how he'd been screwed over by the police, by the homeowner who's house he had admittedly broken into, by our legal system, but never by his own poor decisions)

Most anti gun people I have met have been people who project their own desires, ignorance, and inadequacies onto others, I.E. "I don't feel safe around them, nobody should have to feel unsafe like me...ban them all" or "I don't need them or find a use for them in my life, so neither should you".

They can't fathom or respect anybody enjoying something that they themselves don't, and desire to belong to a nation of people who all think and act alike with no conflict of any sort.
 
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Most anti gun people I have met have been people who project their own desires, ignorance, and inadequacies onto others, I.E. "I don't feel safe around them, nobody should have to feel unsafe like me...ban them all" or "I don't need them or find a use for them in my life, so neither should you".
I'm always tickled by the muscle heads with an emotional age of twelve.

They invariably brag about their "skills" with their fists, and how a "real man" doesn't need a gun. They wax asinine about all of their pointless pugilistic exploits. Needless to say, the idea of people just wanting to go about their lives unmolested is utterly alien.

Most of them are probably liars and blowhards. The rest are violent sociopaths.
 
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I've seen enough OVERT demonstrations of racism by the anti-gun cult to know what the motivations are for a lot of them.

Reminds me of the elderly cleaner in a Lakewood, Ohio McDonald's.

He started berating me for my NRA ballcap, declaring that the NRA should be "banned". When I noted that the last time organizations started getting banned, we misplaced 6,000,000 Jews somewhere. His reply? That he "wasn't so sure that was such a bad thing".

Scratch an anti-gunner, find a Klansman... or a Nazi.

I hope that in the future, pro-2A groups more heavily emphasize the history of gun control and intolerance (especially given the word "intolerance" is loved by the gun control crowd.) Specifically, the commonly used formula of,
  • 1) confiscate weapons and other viable resources needed for independence -->
  • 2) enslave or exterminate (or both) the now unarmed population

For whatever reason, I've noticed this ignorance is very common among rich White ultra-liberals, many of whom believe that they are the "enlightened ones," and everyone else on planet Earth who does not act like them, look like them, and share their identical beliefs is simply a more primitive type of person. Because of this, they see themselves fit to make major decisions for all of us "less capable" (AKA freedom loving) citizens.

When they talk, I always feel that they are the modern day equivalent of the people who wanted to stay part of England instead of fighting for independence.
 
I'm not a legal expert, but the yahoo coming in the door with the carbine at low ready would seem to be "brandishing

I can see that, might be interesting to do the same thing walking into a pro gun place like a gun store and see if you get any different attention.
 
We are sidetracking on the subject of SWATing.

What happens if people DO start calling in every sighting?

Lets do some math - I get somebody in nearly every week on average. If just one other patron calls, that's 52 calls a year. If he stops at another store or gas station on his way home, another 52 calls a year. Now we have an additional 100 call-OUTs for police to respond to. Mandatory.

Add another nine who might OC, that's ONE THOUSAND call outs a year. Just ten can create over 1,000 incidents a year.

What would be the Police reaction? 1) Bust every one of the ten and get a collectively big lawsuit for depriving them of their statutory rights, or 2) start prosecuting the false callers?

The second option is more likely less risky to lose in court.

As we see any incidence of SWATing go up, we will see a police reaction. No doubt. They can't be on callouts three times a day, people tend to shop at the same times and a team can't be in three different locations at the same time.

Our metro has 1 - one - team and it's NOT on standby suited up 24/7 - that can't happen. It's composed of officers who work different shifts, some get pulled off the streets, others remodeling the house on their off time, or from their kids athletic event. While the on duty uniforms bottle up the perp - the SWAT team has to drive to the team house, gear up, and then travel to the site.

It takes a really big metro to afford having four teams - with one on standby suited up for 8 hours five times a week ready to go on a moment's notice.

The more the anti gunners call it in, the more it DOESN'T work. They aren't going to be making any friends in the squad room, and their supervisors right up thru city councilman will be feeling the heat from the ranks.

They already have their hands full of barking dogs, neighbors parking where they feel like, etc. A metro of 250,000 daytime population can't go on 1,000 callouts a year.

Then there is the "Cry Wolf" issue - and the other unintended consequence. When someone who does discern it really it a Bad Guy and he is entering the back door of a movie theatre, for instance. It's now one of one thousand calls a year.

Anybody starting to sense how stupid the campaign is? It's not only not going to work, it's going to create a lot more problems for the PD's and the lessons learned will rapidly spread as the liability experts in the department get a handle on how things will go badly if it's not handled properly. And that includes stemming the false reports.

I suspect that the word is already going out to those anti gun organization to cool it. Stupid idea and regardless of how that local PD chief may agree with them, the logistical and financial impact is not going to be tolerated.

And there's another unintended consequence - like, lawyers looking at SWATing victims as a new source of revenue. There's the caller to sue, their insurance company has deep pockets, the PD for poorly handling the case, that's another revenue source, and if there is any link to an organization - "I attended a meeting and they handed out a flyer on how to do it," you get another lawsuit.

That is so going to happen. At that point it's going National News with NRA spokemen being taken out of context and more demonstrations - more OC to provoke more calls just to start another lawsuit.

This will all wind down pretty quickly because so many will work to prevent it all from happening in the intelligently run districts. Newark or otherwise will keep on keepin on.

It might happen to somebody, sure. We already have three million incidents of a firearm being displayed to ward off thugs already, the odds are much higher you get accosted than SWATted. And that is why you carry, regardless. Not worrying over whether somebody hotlines you for doing it. You already know how to respond to the Police, just grin and have a good time with the arresting officer. Don't forget to thank him for doing his job, he just got you and your lawyer a ticket to somebody's bank account.

Get your head around it and it's not all that.
 
Really surprised that no one started up a web site hosted in another country that ID's hardcore antis for the real criminals to target. Kind of like the sign that says my neighbor is anti and has no guns.
 
The Arkansas Attorney General issued a new opinion two weeks ago, that open carry was lawful within the state. That official opinion is the exact opposite of the one from the previous AG, also posted on the .ar.gov web site.

I intend to open carry on occasion. I fully expect not all police officers will be up on the current legal status, and that I might be stopped and questioned.

Should that happen, I plan to be cheerful and courteous, and view it as my chance to update at least one officer on the latest legal changes. It might take a few hours out of my day, but it would be more useful than spending the same time surfing the web...
 
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