Odd POI, how is this possible?

Status
Not open for further replies.

bikemutt

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2010
Messages
4,479
Location
Vancouver, WA
I was at the range this afternoon shooting a Steyr .308 rifle at 100 yards. Eventually I ran out of target spots I placed on the board so, with a few rounds of Hornady Match left, I went after someone else's left-over black dots.

The first picture shows I managed a decent 5-shot group just about 1/4" into, and below, where the black dot was. With a target change pending and only 3 rounds left, I moved to another black dot about 12" above this one.

Not a terrible 3-shot group but, how on earth is it an inch or so lower on the target board than the previous group?

The only thing I, and a few range pals, could figure is the target boards lean backwards maybe 15 degrees or so. That still doesn't make sense to me, I'm aiming at the dot. Maybe the barrel reached a heat point after the first 5 where it just started dropping the rounds a bit lower? BTW, it was on and off raining all day, maybe the rain drops forced the last rounds lower :)

Anyone else notice a change on POI just from aiming at different point on the target board?

20150917_154219_zpsoozknaqk.gif

20150917_154232_zpssuronii0.gif
 
How long between shots? 8 rounds in a fairly short time could cause a shift in POI.
 
Wind shift? Hold the rifle tighter or looser? Shoulder pressure the same through recoil on both groups? Rifle sitting on the rest/bags the same each time?
 
A lean on the target, particularly if it's capable of moving with the wind. A good friend of mine was the former senior SWAT sniper for our agency, and he had all kinds of little tricks to ensure a good tight group. The first one I got that day was to make sure the target is plumb vertical, and that it can't blow in the wind. Even a 1" rocking motion of the target can turn a clover leaf into separate holes.

-Jenrick
 
Fatigue perhaps. I start out doing really good but after a few hours my groups suffer badly. That's when I know I've had enough for a while.
 
You shot one group.

Fifteen minutes later you shot a slightly different group. Your grip, cheek weld, distance of eye from scope, whatever, might have changed slightly. Pretty normal. Wait another 15minutes and you might shoot the best group of your whole life, or the worst. Pretty normal. If we could count on shooting the exact same group every time, and it was decent, there wouldn't be much point to practicing.
 
Too few rounds shot to be sure.

Those three rounds could be part of a larger group than you defined with the 1st group.

10 round groups are pretty much a minimum for getting a good idea of what you and your rifle are capable of, with multiple 10 round groups being better.

BSW
 
I see this same identical shifting of groups at the range with guys that don't completely understand parallax adjustment on the glass they're using.

GS
 
parallax is a likely cause but I wasn't with you.

Folks hammer that "focus on the cross hair" like the irons shooters "focus on the front sight"

They tend to forget, or just not know, the importance of being able to check your spot weld by being able to see a black ring of thinnest proportions around the scope view. If you get to close to the scope you will not see this narrow boarder to your image. To far back and the boarder gets thicker. TO far to either side, up or down or any way cat a whompus, while at the right distance produces a Cresent-Moon like image on oneside of what should be that equally narrow band.

Many modern shooters not use to the older scopes that did not have easy adjustments either forget this or simply do not know.

-kBob
 
Since several folks mentioned parallax, the scope in question is a Vortex Viper PST FFP, 6-24x50. I had it on about 12x for this session.

The side focus knob was, and always has been, set at 100 yards since that's the range I shoot at these days, and the target has been verified to be very close to that distance by range finder, within a yard or two. I'm not sure if the side focus knob is the same as parallax, if not, I don't know what else to adjust.

After re-reading jmr40's question concerning time between shots, and my response, I don't know what I was thinking :uhoh:. The 15 minutes I stated is the amount of time from when the range goes hot to when the range master gives the 3 minutes until target change notification, after which the range goes cold.

So, to more correctly answer the question, I shot the first group of 5 during the 15 minute regular time. I had 3 rounds left when the 3 minute notification aired, I decided to take a poke with these at the black dot shown in the second picture. All three were dispatched within the 3 minute remaining window.

My thought is that since the first 5 shots pretty much demolished the first black dot, the second group of 3 shots should have done the same to the second black dot. And, if the rifle started stringing from heat, that the second group would not have been as tight as the first. Instead a small, but noticeable shift in POI was observed when the only significant change was POA. It begs the question that if I'd continued to shoot the remaining 3 rounds at the first POA, would they have been low? We'll never know.

This isn't the first time where I've noticed groups having different POI on a target board with different POA's, just the first time I got a picture of it.
 
This isn't the first time where I've noticed groups having different POI on a target board with different POA's, just the first time I got a picture of it.

I might suspect that you're holding off the different aiming marks differently since you're seeing different POIs.

BSW
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top