Why brick and morter are dying

20 years from now, the lgs in small towns will be gone...

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I might challenge that assumption (but I often question "conventional wisdom").

A more accurate description may be bad LGS's in small towns may be gone, but those that know the business, their customers, and enjoy customers just hanging out even when not buying (that particular day) may well outlast some of the big box stores.

Fer example - I've been in Dunham's, Gander Mountain, and a few more and I 'bout choke on the prices - somebody's gotta pay for all that floor space, and we know who that is.

We're fortunate in our town to have not only one, but two small shops with employees with a wealth of experience and knowledge. One caters more to hunters and fisherman (with an employee / enthusiast in each discipline) and another that specializes more in SD and Class III items.

I can't really see any big box store running either of them out of business.

There was a local gun shop near me for a while. Small shop with low inventory. Prices were not so great, but I still bought stuff from them. Nice people. Used to swing by occasoinally to see what was new. They are closed now.

The "Great Ammo Shortage" hurt a lot of them because if they were not high volume buyers they probably couldn't get anything from their suppliers. If you cannot buy stock for a multiyear period it is hard to sell enough to make a living and pay the overhead.

We have two where I live one in town one a few miles outside. I buy all of my primers ,powder and guns from them. I cast my own bullets free wheel weights from the tire shop. Most of my reloading equipment came from them got some replacement parts from midway got a Lee turret and a pro 1000. I'm in both of them every week only place I will buy a firearm. I want to handle it first

Out of all the local gun shops, I only like one. He does free transfers and has decent prices on ammo and guns. Unfortunately he stocks very little merchandise.

All the other local shops are crazy overpriced and the clerks have that stereotypical gun shop employee attitude.

So most of my buying is done online. I try to buy ammo accessories from the first shop since he does free transfers. If he has a gun I want, I will usually buy it. But interesting guns in his shop are few and far between.

I am sure he can pay his rent doing your free transfers. Have you ever spent any time in contemplation as to the purpose of a business????

Steel Horse Rider said:

I am sure he can pay his rent doing your free transfers. Have you ever spent any time in contemplation as to the purpose of a business????

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If you are speaking to me, I easily spend about $100 on ammo or accessories during each transfer.

Other than that he doesn't have much to buy other than some bolt guns, shotguns, and Glocks.

Not my fault he doesn't keep a better inventory or chooses to offer free transfers.

Not sure why you seem offended????

I apologize in advance for the almost certain offense I will be giving with the following, but after a while a trend probably bears discussion.

Somewhat off the main topic (of "brick and mortar" LGS), I have noted more than a few posts in various THR threads that refer to sales/use tax (and/or the ability do avoid paying same by purchasing online).

On an admittedly quick look, I found that of the 50 states (+ DC), only these five states do not have a general sales/use tax: Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire and Oregon. Some of these five have local sales tax.

In other words, it seems when people in every state save these five talk about avoiding sales/use tax, they appear to be talking about tax evasion.

True, these laws don't appear to be aggressively enforced (if at all). As an example, in Ohio it is collected when one files income tax returns and pretty much depends on the individual to keep score. However, if one is making significant purchases out of state and does not pay the state's use/sales tax , it is what it is.

Let me be clear that I don't particularly like this, and would be much happier if it didn't exist. It is a pain to track, and I'm never comfortable that I've caught everything.

This said, if (as an example) we are going to raise concerns on the forum when more restrictive firearms laws are proposed about how this is creating more inconvenience for the law-abiding (albeit legitimately), there is an apparent irony when, on the same forum, advice is offered about how we can avoid sales tax by purchasing online, which doesn't seem all that law-abiding (whatever one might think of the law in question).

"if one is making significant purchases out of state and does not pay the state's use/sales tax , it is what it is."

You are correct. It's tax evasion.

It's as American as apple pie. Doesn't make it right though.

Meanwhile, small businesses have been going out of business for decades. It's not all the B&M stores that are dying, only some of them.

River: I am not offended at all but I think folks who complain about transfer fees, sales tax, high costs, and a lesser than online selection of inventory of local gun stores are answering the question originally asked.

"You are correct. It's tax evasion." --JohnBT

Incorrect. It's tax avoidance...and anyone with a reasonable IQ and rational-thought skills chooses that protocol. Buying the best product available at the lowest price point is the essence of the free market of goods and services.

Blade First said:

"You are correct. It's tax evasion." --JohnBT

Incorrect. It's tax avoidance...and anyone with a reasonable IQ and rational-thought skills chooses that protocol. Buying the best product available at the lowest price point is the essence of the free market of goods and services.

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Actually, tax avoidance is the use of legal means to avoid paying a higher tax (e.g. taking the option to pay healthcare premiums in pre-tax dollars on payroll, itemizing deductions, reporting of charitable donations, etc.).

Tax evasion is when one deliberately makes inaccurate representations regarding the state of their financial affairs to the taxing authority to reduce tax liability (e.g. not reporting income, or in this case not reporting goods and services purchased for use in your state from an out of state vendor when your state has a use tax).

Use taxes (as mentioned earlier) are pretty common. As put by one state's Department of Revenue, "A person must also register to report and pay use tax on purchases of tangible personal property, computer software and specified digital products that they cause to be imported for use in Tennessee. The use tax applies to the purchase price of the imported item, which includes the entire amount the customer must pay for the item."

In Ohio use tax can be reported and paid along with income tax filing.

"Incorrect."

Anyone with a reasonable IQ and rational-thought skills wouldn't say that. Read the tax laws for yourself.

Blade First said:

"You are correct. It's tax evasion." --JohnBT

Incorrect. It's tax avoidance...and anyone with a reasonable IQ and rational-thought skills chooses that protocol. Buying the best product available at the lowest price point is the essence of the free market of goods and services.

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It is tax evasion. Every state with a sales tax also has a use tax. Use taxes are levied on items purchased out of state. The buyer / user is required to keep track of their out of state purchases and pay the difference between the sales tax collected in the other state and the sales that that would have been collected if the sale was made in their state. Do any private individuals do this? None that I know of, but it is still the law and therefore not paying the tax is tax evasion.

Back to the original topic

There are very few brick and mortal gun stores in my area that will still be around 20 years from now IMO. During the panic buying years since about 2008, several here have already gone under.

Those who sold only guns and gun related items were the first to go. They couldn't get inventory to sell and, when they did, they tended to gouge pretty heavily which drove off many of their customers. Things like primers for $6 per 100 and $70 for a brick of .22 put the nails in their coffins.

Other more diversified stores (Like Dick's sporting goods for example), stopped selling "Assault" rifles after Sandyhook which drove off a fair amount of customers. Granted, they will probably still be around in 20 years but they won't offer much that I care about.

Another thing I noticed during the panic was that the dealers with ranges on the premises kept changing the rules to eek a few more dollars out of everyone who walked in the door to use the range. One local range went so far as to ban shooters from picking up their own brass. One employee I know there admitted it was to make a little extra profit from selling brass... It didn't work. They went out of business because nearly everyone stopped shooting there.

There are a couple of dealers that have been around long enough and carry a large enough inventory to ride these things out but they are very few and far between. I do support my local dealers as often as possible but I won't be taken advantage of either.

Since we're going back to topic (and my apologies for starting the digression into tax law) ...

Local places that appear to be doing well are those that find something in addition to selling arms and other stuff that can be readily gotten online, in favor of focusing on things such as services, a venue for classes, and live experience shooting with people to give advice.

As one example, a business nearby to where I live has a shooting range in the store, firearms rental (so you can try stuff out) and friendly, helpful and knowledgeable range officers (and sales people). They also have classrooms where people can get their CCW or other advanced training. This is one example of how the LGS can provide something that the online vendor can't.

A lot of places can sell one a Glock 43 (and if they're moving a ton of volume can likely do it for a lot less than a LGS). This said, I've yet to see Midway or Bud's (as much as I like them) come out and give a couple of pointers to my wife and make a big fuss about how well she shot when the pointers work. That, and range officers that absolutely dote on my kids when they're there makes for a place to which we return often (and spend when we're there).

These are also things kept in mind when I want to buy something that's cheaper online (and out of state). I do shop online, but the price has to beat by a fairly decent margin what I can do locally. As to the use tax thing, I don't see the utility in penalizing the local merchant by requiring them to beat an online vendor by 6.75-7.5% (sales tax in the Ohio counties where I generally shop) to get my business, and it's also the law. This is my personal thing.

The successful gun stores here are pawn shops. A few of them just keep a bunch of older pawned items and a couple are bona fide gun stores located in a pawn shop.

In our world today you can't consistently gouge your customers because pricing an item is so much easier with the internet. 15 years ago it took a fairly knowledgeable person to get good deals on guns but now any Joe can look online for a "fair" price. I know I do. I expect the LGS to be close, not cheaper or match, but also not $100 higher on a $500 gun. We have one store here that has Glock pistols for $75-$100 higher than any other store in town and any online site. I don't really understand that philosophy unless they do a lot of trading. It is a pawn shop firstly so maybe that's the deal for them. Stores that offer services will tend to survive while stores that just sell guns and gun related things will likely continue to wither away.

River: I am not offended at all but I think folks who complain about transfer fees, sales tax, high costs, and a lesser than online selection of inventory of local gun stores are answering the question originally asked.

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Sort of. It seems like there's a bit of confusion going on between 'local' and 'small' businesses. Just because they have a website doesn't make a business an IBM or a Microsoft.

Transfer fees aren't a complaint against small or local businesses, they're a complaint against the stupidity of the 1968 GCA. Without that law a WA resident could legally buy a CZ83 directly from a small store in OR.

Speaking of which, the WA resident would be likely to stumble across that used CZ83 in OR while taking a shopping vacation in Portland. Go on most any finance forum and you'll see the same tips about sales/use tax: "buy a used couch on Craigslist vs in a store in WA, you'll save 9.3% automatically", "drive down to OR to buy that if the cost of gas is less than the tax, Portland is a nice place to visit anyway", and so on.

As far as I'm concerned, it is up to the seller to collect and pay the tax out of the sale. When I sell on eBay for the company I work for, sales tax is in the selling price.

If internet companies won't or can't do that, oh well.

If internet companies won't or can't do that, oh well.

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States are catching on and beginning to add that to the cost of doing internet business, which will drive the cost for many small web businesses to the point that they will go out of business.

A lot of internet businesses deserve to go out of business just as a lot of internet shoppers deserve to be taken advantage of. Service and knowledge have a value. I am not in the firearm business but I am in the commercial refrigeration business. There are a lot of places that sell the same equipment I sell and often at a price that is less than I can buy it for, but, they have no knowledge of the equipment's operation or installation parameters. A lot of the folks who purchase this equipment are equally ignorant of what they need to know and mostly do not read the installation and operation manual that came with the equipment. When the equipment does not operate properly, my company is usually given local consumers as a warranty service agent, without informing them that the warranty doesn't cover mileage charges, overtime, adjustments, or incorrect installations. I always spend at least ten minutes explaining the details of the warranty policy to them and also suggest several things which are usually overlooked on installation and start up procedures. Some are grateful and fix their own ignorance, some are very arrogant and keep repeating the word "warranty" as if it will drive off the evil service company, and others tell you to come on out and that they will gladly pay you for your time if the problem is not a warranty issue but then refuse to pay when shown the problem. Sometimes looking through issues from another perspective will help you to understand that everything is not always as it seems......

Service and knowledge have a value.

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Truer words were never spoken!

One of my enjoyable time killing exercises is hanging around the gun shop and watching the shop experts figure out customer problems (and there are a lot of them coming in with all kinds of problems).

Just the other day a gentleman was all bent out of shape because he couldn't get his black powder rifle on paper at 100 yards.
They hit him with a barrage of questions (you could see his head spinning), but finally determined:
1. He was using centerfire ballistics tables (for his black powder rifle).
2. They finally hit on it when they asked him to describe the hole in his target at close range (I think 50, but maybe 25 yards).

Turns out his holes at close range are not round, but oblong, so they determined his bullets are tumbling. If they're cutting ragged holes in his target / are tumbling at close range, who knows where they're going at longer distances.

They sold him the black powder round most of the locals and shop guys have the most luck with, and sent him on his way.

He had a much better attitude when he left than when he came in!

"As far as I'm concerned, it is up to the seller to collect and pay the tax out of the sale."

If the seller doesn't pay the tax then you owe it. How you feel about that policy isn't important to the state tax agency. It's the law.

http://comptroller.texas.gov/taxinfo/sales/faq_use.html

"3. Do I owe tax on goods purchased via mail-order catalogs or Internet merchandise?

Yes. A seller who uses catalogs or the Internet to sell goods is treated the same as any other seller of taxable items. If you purchase merchandise through a catalog or the Internet from a seller located in Texas, you owe Texas sales tax on the purchase. If you purchase merchandise through a catalog or the Internet from a seller located outside of Texas and use the taxable item in Texas, then you owe Texas use tax on the purchase. An out-of-state mail-order company or an Internet company may hold a Texas Sales and Use tax permit and collect Texas tax. If the out-of-state seller does not have a Texas permit or does not collect Texas use tax, the use tax is due and payable by the purchaser."

JohnBT said:

"As far as I'm concerned, it is up to the seller to collect and pay the tax out of the sale."

If the seller doesn't pay the tax then you owe it. How you feel about that policy isn't important to the state tax agency. It's the law.

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I see that link doesn't apply to you. I'm not going to dig up the laws in your state.

I pay sales tax for everything I purchase from sellers. Whether the tax is in the sale or added to the sale. I pay property taxes, auto sales taxes, state fees, county fees, etc. I pay my income taxes to the Feds.

Like I mentioned earlier, I takes sales taxes out of the selling price for items I sell on eBay for the company I work for. I do my part.

Sellers that keep my tax money of items I purchase that don't forward it to state sales tax agencies? Well that's on them.

I support a system where the seller collects sales tax from the purchaser. I don't support a system that shifts sales tax collection duties to the purchaser.

chicharrones said:

I support a system where the seller collects sales tax from the purchaser. I don't support a system that shifts sales tax collection duties to the purchaser.

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What you support doesn't have any bearing on what is the law. The current law in Texas says that a buyer in Texas owes use tax on any item purchased out of state where Texas sales tax was not collected.

Companies are only required to collect sales tax in states that they have a physical presence. If you are collecting Texas sales tax on items you sell out of state you are not doing it right. You should be collecting Texas sales tax for items sold in your state. If the item is sold out of state you either don't collect sales tax at all or collect the sales tax due in the state the buyer lives and then send that tax to the proper authority in that state.

Sales tax for internet sales are based on the location of the buyer, not the seller.

EDIT: There have been strong pushes in recent years by states to get a Federal law passed that requires sellers to collect sales taxes for all sales regardless of where the buyer is located. It would require a company to collect all sales taxes: state, county, and city. As a seller you would need to know the required tax for any location in the USA, collect that tax, and then send payment to the proper tax authorities. Such a system would be a huge burden for small business, including the local gun shop. Thankfully, so far this push has been unsuccessful. It would be far easier to do what you seem to be doing and collect taxes based on the location of the seller, but States don't want that type of system.