Please help me diagnose my crappy Glock 23 shooting

Status
Not open for further replies.

1KPerDay

Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2006
Messages
20,781
Location
Happy Valley, UT
This is one of the first pistols I ever bought, back in 1994ish. I don't particularly like the ergos of this pistol but I have always shot it well. I feel like I can't miss. Everything stock other than a smooth G22 trigger, Talon grips and some file work to remove the triggerguard hump. Here's the first time I shot it in a match if you want to see. This was shot with storm lake barrel and my 140 gr MBC reloads. (I'm the fat dude with the orange hat) https://youtu.be/elBvNcVb-X0

So lately I've noticed I seem to be very inconsistent with it. I'll feel like I'm holding center on the plates for each shot and 3 will hit and then one will miss completely. Or like 3 in a row will miss.

I started shooting "groups" just on a torso plate and noticed I was getting one center mass group and then 2 or 3 fliers to the top right shoulder. Weird. I truly feel like I'm trying to get the same trigger press, sight alignment, etc. every shot; just some go wild. I am primarily shooting 165 Xtreme reloads over 5 grains WST. Has proven a very good load in a Glock 22. I assumed it would be similarly good in my 23. Tried stock barrel (ported G23C) and maybe a little better but still have weird fliers. Have cleaned very very well to see if it helped. It didn't. Tried my 140 grain reloads but I seem to shoot them poorly now also.

I asked my brother to shoot it but results were inconclusive due to inconsistent technique (tried several guns and barrels; all looked similarly bad :D ). With his pistol (G22 with Salient mods) I printed a baseball sized group at 18 yards offhand.

I can't for the life of me figure out why I would be jerking them up to the right, as a right-handed shooter. I must admit the possibility, but I really feel like I'm not doing it. I tried some 165 PMC bronze and maybe a little better. I shot some groups seated from a wobbly upside down plastic bucket rest. I take my accuracy seriously.:rolleyes:

Some probably unhelpful photos:

Xtreme 165, SL barrel, offhand. typical group. One cluster near the navel/POA and some weird stuff up to the right. IMG_1753_zpsfzkntemr.jpg

Same ammo through OEM barrel. Maybe better but still some weird high fliers.
IMG_1755_zpsgozlduhb.jpg

140 Lead reloads, SL barrel. couple high right fliers.
IMG_1756_zpsszarhcbr.jpg

OEM barrel, 165 Xtreme, seated. what the heck is that one top left??
IMG_1757_zpsswadsb9h.jpg

SL barrel, 165 xtreme, seated. Still some high right weirdness IMO.
IMG_1758_zpsywfhn39m.jpg

Some shots of SL barrel... maybe some peening at rear of hood? anything look wrong?
IMG_1759_zpszhbkf6om.jpg
IMG_1760_zpsp6ufiuuz.jpg
IMG_1761_zpsl3ukpwvb.jpg

PMC 165 TMJ, SL barrel, seated.
IMG_1762_zps3aly1uv3.jpg

Last 4 PMC rounds, OEM barrel, seated.

IMG_1763_zpsfs5nridw.jpg

Input/abuse/advice welcome.:cool:
 
I don't have any answer. But I had the same or similar problem with a 23 The first and only Glock I have ever owned. The first few times I shot it It was like I could not miss it shot very impressive groups with little effort. Then over a period of several months it went downhill. I own and shoot a variety of pistols and revolvers. I am Glock free now.
 
Several of those groups look pretty good for 18 yards. Plenty adequate for SD. You look like you are doing fine in the video.

My G22C prefers WWB 165 and 180 for practice with factory barrel and same weight Speer Gold Dot HPs for defense. For aftermarket barrels, I have always had great luck with KKM. Sorry no targets to post.

BTW, older Glock 40s had more "generous" chambers and weren't quite as accurate as newer ones, IMO.

As far as flyers, possible flinch or jerk, but can't say.

Good luck

M
 

Attachments

  • G22C_1.jpg
    G22C_1.jpg
    142.4 KB · Views: 47
  • G22C_KKM.jpg
    G22C_KKM.jpg
    182.6 KB · Views: 52
Last edited:
Every single one of your groups wanders right.
Maybe he was aiming for the heart...in which case that's good shootin'. LOL

M
 
Every single one of your groups wanders right. I'm willing to bet that you are getting too much finger on the trigger.
Yeah. I'll try to pay more attention to that. I assume that's a common symptom of too much finger? Why high right though? what else am I doing wrong?
 
Using a 40. The 9 is much more accurate. I started with a 23 almost 22 years ago when it came out. I never could shoot it as well as the 19, and I shoot almost any caliber pretty well, started 45 years ago carrying a 38 in NYC. The 40 just always was erratic to me, I tried it 5 times in different pistols with the same effect. I found that with the EMP, I shot 8 out of 10 rounds well and 2 would just go out of the group almost like magic. same with glock and the 27. I stopped using 40, 5 years ago because no matter what I did I never got consistent results. Now, I shoot 45 all the time and don't have that problem, so whatever it was I just decided I gave it enough opportunity and it just was not meant to be. Have you tried the same drill with a 9?
 
Yes, but I will again. The G19 has other issues with sights which I have posted about before. It hits like 12 inches high with the commonly recommended Warren Tactical sights I installed.
 
1KPerDay said:
I assume that's a common symptom of too much finger?

Very common. The problem is that instead of using the center of the pad of the finger, the trigger creeps a bit (or more) towards the knuckle. The natural motion of the finger tends to pull the muzzle to the right. This problem tends to creep up more frequently with people switching to striker fired guns from long reach DA/SA types. I theorize this is because most striker guns like Glock and M&P have trigger set farther back, like a 1911s, than the typically more forward DA/SAs like Beretta or Sig... So, if you aren't used to the rear set trigger you get too much finger in there.

The shots going up could be a number of things. I suggest having a friend randomly load some dummy rounds in your magazine next time you are at the range to see if you've developed a bit of an anticipatory push on the gun when it fires. It's almost impossible to detect this with normal dry fire since you know there won't be any bang. Do you shoot a heavier gun other times? That might mask it. Or, the stronger recoil of the Glock 23 may cause it when a heavier/softer recoiling gun is fine for you.
 
Well...

There's only one way to find out, process of elimination. Use a sturdy rest on a table and see if it still does that with those loads listed. :cool:
 
My 23's run fine.I suggest returning it to stock and trying factory federal 180gn ammo. I run stock barrels except for threaded suppressor barrels.

-Then lose those clunky sights.

I run the full Glockworks Kit, LW 3.5 connector, LW ss guide rod, Warren Sevigny comp sights.
 
With too much finger on the trigger, most often right hander's shoot (or push) left, and left hander's shoot (or push) right. As the finger curls in to squeeze the trigger it kind of "preloads" or puts tension on the gun so when the shot goes off, it snaps it that direction slightly.
Obviously the brain has to concentrate on several things at once when you're shooting, but focusing on pulling that trigger straight back has to be one of them. With the Glock (striker) type triggers, that can be a challenge at times.

After many years on the range, it was almost a "no brainer" when you'd see basic recruits hit one way or the other depending on on their strong hand.....telltale.....

Hope it helps....
Bob
 
Last edited:
have you run a box of factory ammo thru the gun to make sure it's the gun and not your reloads?

murf
 
PMC bronze see above.

Hangunr that is what I would expect as a righty handed shooter, that I'd be pushing shots left.

I'll try the dummy load mix. Good idea.
 
Yeah....true......

Have someone load the mag for (away from) you so you don't know when the dummy comes up......I've done that before when instructing with revolvers.

Gotta watch the shooter closely from behind, but it works.......

I'm not there with ya, and can only assume on some things, but with a solid two hand hold, good sight alignment and a good solid rest, stringing right could be a problem involving a couple factors.......
 
Handgunr said:
With too much finger on the trigger, most often right hander's shoot (or push) left, and left hander's shoot (or push) right. As the finger curls in to squeeze the trigger it kind of "preloads" or puts tension on the gun so when the shot goes off, it snaps it that direction slightly.

We may be using the same terms to describe different issues, but I usually see a leftward swing with too little finger on the trigger,not too much. Usually the gun is too big for the shooter, or the trigger too far forward, so they only get the very tip of the finger on the trigger. That way when they pull the trigger they end up putting some pressure on the side too and the gun wanders left as the sideways pressure is applied.

With too much finger, the trigger tends to curl into the pocket of the knuckle as the trigger is pulled and that drags the muzzle right.

Either way, the solution is the same: 1) make sure the trigger is in the middle of the pad of the finger. 2) make sure it doesn't move from that spot during the trigger pull. If the trigger is sliding left or right on the finger pad, adjust the mechanics of the trigger pull until it stays put.
 
.40 Taurus PT101AF, seated, 165 xtreme

IMG_1764_zpskutmgfre.jpg

Tried a Glock 19, seated. I was holding the bottom edge of the torso. this is 147 grain reloads that hit to even lower POI than my usual stuff, which hits about a foot or more high with these sights.

IMG_1765_zpsrfmyha6r.jpg

Dan Wesson Heritage .45 ACP, Seated, UMC ball, 15 shots
IMG_1766_zpslm0y9cpi.jpg

S&W CORE 9L with RMR optical sight and Apex FSS trigger and sear, seated, 147 grain reloads, 15 shots
IMG_1767_zpsgf9gvyar.jpg
 
Don't tighten your grip while pulling trigger. Will cause the gun to cant. Mainly caused by anticipation of recoil. Use factory lighter loads and see what happens.
 
Don't tighten your grip while pulling trigger. Will cause the gun to cant. Mainly caused by anticipation of recoil. Use factory lighter loads and see what happens.
This was my first guess, its called "healing". Its most likely loosening the grip as you press the trigger. People usually do this when they are consciously trying to avoid "flinching" (attempting to counter recoil by tightening grip and pushing away).

No offense to any who have posted here, this is all just differences in theory. But there is nothing inherently inaccurate about a .40 nor is there anything inherently accurate about a 9mm or .45. Further, all the stuff about too much finger or too little finger on the trigger hasn't ever been shown to make a difference, some pro shooter use the first pad, others the first knuckle, others some other spot. The trigger only moves straight to the rear, and your finger only moves in an arc. No matter how much someone tells you its possible, you cant apply pressure straight to the rear throughout the trigger travel. Accept this and place your finger on the trigger wherever it is most comfortable.

In the end, it all boils down to this: a temporary change in focus (possibly as short as .05 seconds before the gun goes off) from keeping your sights aligned and on target to something else. The something else is usually controlling recoil. Sometimes, especially with healing its a focus on a "smooth surprise trigger press" that causes the shooter to loosen his grip. You should not be thinking about your trigger press while applying pressure, you should be thinking about your sights, and thats it.

I'm on a bit of a rant now - so ill keep going. I think trigger press is sited way to frequently as the cause of all problems. Stance, grip, trigger control, and breathing have no direct effect on where the round impacts. The only thing that matters is where the gun is pointing, and the only reference the shooter has to that is the sights, therfore, that is all they should be thinking about. Everything else is a technique to prevent the shooter from disturbing the sights, but you can still make accurate shots with a lousy grip, lousy stance, and terrible trigger control - so long as you keep the gun pointed at the target.

You dont want to pull the trigger like the starter cord on a lawnmower, but that doesnt require focus or concentration. You dont need to think about the movement of your finger when pulling a trigger anymore than you do when you flip a lightswitch or open a soda can.
 
Last edited:
Interesting, I also experienced what op. has .... what helped me, was to lift my "pinky " finger off the grip before I squeezed the trigger. the grip would wrench the gun slightly.
 
ClickClick,

I'd respectfully agree to disagree on this one.....

On average (especially in double action mode), too much finger on the trigger will push the shot left for right handed shooters as the finger contracts......right for lefties. Holding the sites (or frame) steady while your squeezing the trigger can usually be maintained, but most who suffer from the affliction apply unrealized lateral torque on the frame of the gun either through poor trigger control, or grip.
Many times, using light loads, while standing behind a recruit who suffers from it, you can see the front sight blade torque at the shot......other times you could see lateral movement (shaking) of the sight blade "prior to" as well. After training a few thousand basic police over the years, that discrepancy was blatantly apparent in that group rather than seasoned officers. Obviously the matter of the finger regarding proper trigger control is huge, but it's also a matter of grip position, tension, two hand hold issues, etc..........hard to assess over the internet......

Also I do respect everyone's opinion, regardless of whether I agree or not......

Bob
 
Shoot it from a vise if you are truly concerned about accuracy of the ammo.

Fix the sights if they are not correctly regulated to your preferred ammo.

Once you know the ammo and sights are good....

PRACTICE.

It really is that simple.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top