Funny interaction with a sheriff

1) Actually, I defend his 1A right to disagree with you on his own terms.

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LOL! Awesome!

If you read it again I didn't say he doesn't have the "1st Amendment" right (no such thing here on a private forum, by the way) to disagree. I said if he's going to do so with any credibility he's going to have to explain and support why.

Anybody can say, "Nope, I don't agree with you," whether they're talking about gun rights or arguing over whether the sun is shining. Gotta come up with a little more than that or it's just noise.

Every time I drive buy a gun sale I ask "Got any guns?"

One of these days, I'm going to actually stop and ask THEM. My dream is for someone to say..."Well, I've got this old Parker shotgun that I don't want around the house. I'll give it to you if you'll just get it out of here."

Hey...I can dream can't I?

I guess I would not have invited the officer into my home, or to look in my safe. I would have stepped out onto the porch to talk to him and let him know everything was on the up and up. He was dispatched, so he did his job. That doesn't mean you have to do anything more than answer his questions. Consequently, legal or not, I wouldn't advertise I had guns in my home, or sell them at a garage sale either. But whatever. That's the OP's business.

Even answering his questions really is questionable since he came to your property without a warrant of any kind.

Sunday night around 9:00 pm I was walking down the exterior stairs of my home that leads to my basement to check my laundry. I saw the flash of a spot light hit me briefly from the road below my property and saw a cop car sitting down there. Then I saw it start to drive down a recreation trail that runs past my home, but is restricted to non motorized vehicles. Clearly they were looking for someone.

Ten minutes later I heard someone coming down the wooden stairs that lead to my front door. I immediately grabbed my HK45 on the chance it was the individual or individuals that the cops were looking for. It turned out to be an officer. I put my gun down and went outside to talk and as it turns out, they were looking for some underage run-aways from the juvenile corrections institute that is about 8 miles south of my house. I was polite and talked with him for a few moments since he was doing his job. I only bought the house in June, and my truck was parked in back, so they weren't sure anyone lived there, and wanted to make sure the kids weren't using it as a flop house.

However, that's where I draw the line. If he had asked to come inside and look around to make sure the kids weren't there, or for any reason, my answer would have been no. I have nothing to hide, but I just don't know him is the issue, and I do not allow people into my home I don't know, unless paying them for a service.

My wife and I had a similar interaction several years ago. A Detective showed up at our apartment door, proper I.D and all, very pleasant, and told us an anonymous tip had been received that we were making and selling Meth from our residence. They had even run surveillance on our residence for several days....seeing us in and out with our granddaughter, me with my guns going to the range, etc., etc. We invited him in, and had a pleasant conversation. My wife even suggested he take a look at our son's bedroom. He didn't. He then asked me if I thought any of my co workers might have done it. I said I didn't think so, not wanting to get anyone in trouble. Next day, a co-worker who had a reputation for planning, then admitting complex, but immature malicious to vicious "practical jokes" chuckled when he asked about the incident, and he knew much more about it than I told. You "know", but can't prove. :banghead: He said, "I didn't make that call." He probably didn't, possibly talked a friend or relative into doing it for him, so he could say that "honestly", under oath.

Anyway, my wife , who was highly-skilled paralegal, talked to her boss about it the next day, and was told: "NO", wrong response!
He said; Do not EVER let a LEO into your residence without a warrant. Be polite, answer questions or not, don't lie, but once inside your home, if the Officer sees something unrelated to his visit, but still illegal, he can make an arrest. Don't give anything except basic information, and don't hesitate to ask for an attorney.

Now, as for the naivete of the OP,(He seems like a very nice guy!) in this day and age, advertising GUNS FOR SALE in a public forum (radio, sign, classified ad) may not be the wisest of actions. There seems to be some sort of honor code among the majority of gun owners, which has been remarked on several times over the years, which doesn't seem to extend to the general public. No disparagement of forum (this and others) members.
His verbal diarrhea speaks for itself. But, some people are like that...can't shut up to save themselves.

So, maybe he sold a gun,(good for him) and made a friend of the Officer, (a Good thing) but...maybe not.
He obviously has not thought of possible consequences of his actions. In my interactions with larcenously-inclined human beings, that was always a red flag. "He/She is telling me TOO much ...what are they hiding?"

Soooo....do what you want, but remember the timeless counsel "Be harmless as doves, yet wise as serpents!"

Not entirely the same, since most of the WTS posts I have seen (haven't been around long, so I may not have the whole picture) don't list an address, but I get your point that the statement was a bit heavy-handed.
Reading meaning into the internet forum posts of others is potentially dangerous, but it looks to me like many of the posters that are disagreeing with the OP's actions are attempting to point out that he didn't HAVE to react in the manner he did, so that others out there don't get the wrong impression. I think we can all agree about that, though, in my small town, I very likely would have done something similar, if I were in his shoes.
As to the question of how to conduct an interaction with law enforcement, I think that a lot of the controversy is a result of the vastly different locations in which we live. What is acceptable, or appropriate, where I live would might be a very bad idea a few towns (or states) over.
Take home message? Know your rights, know your risk, make your own decisions, and don't complain if the risks bite you.

*Edited for grammar.

My dream is for someone to say..."Well, I've got this old Parker shotgun that I don't want around the house. I'll give it to you if you'll just get it out of here."

Hey...I can dream can't I?

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I have a similar dream.
In mine a yuppie couple pulls an old box out with a mint Python in it and says, "It was my father's but I'm scared of guns. Give me $100 and take it."

HOME DEPOT GEORGE said:

...I have to say this particular part of your post I quoted above is essentially calling the majority of the forum members fools or haven't you ever looked at the forums classified section.

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Point taken...Actually no, I don't look at the classifieds. Maybe I should.
Post edited to reflect my true attitude about gun enthusiasts and forum members. (this and other) There seems to be a "code of honor" among most gun enthusiasts, which has been remarked on several times over the years, which does not seem to extend to a lot of the general public.

Apologies to those who I may have disgruntled.

Nice to read about a positive interaction with law enforcement.

However, I think the OP was being over accommodating. On the other hand, maybe he saw a prime sale opportunity.

BigBore44 said:

Guys I'm just lost on this whole thing. Maybe it's because my grandfather was a U.S Marshal, dad was a 25 year vet of a large department, and my brother is a Shift Sup and Fed Drug Task Force agent.

Maybe it's because I live in a fairly small town. But our cops are not militarized. Sure, they have AR's. But that's not militarized. And if they all drove Strykers who cares. "Well they don't need Hummers and APC's" yeah? And? I don't "need" the lift on my truck and oversized tires everyday. But when I do, it's sure nice to have. You don't need air bags in your vehicle. Or seatbelts.....until you get in a wreck. Same goes for the cops. There's a lot of things they don't need, until they do. Like the bank robbery in L.A. Or the riots in Ferguson, or name a 1,000 other times cops needed to be protected. You guys don't seem to get it. How are they supposed to help protect us if they can't protect themselves? Now someone please bring up the saying that "when seconds count, the cops are just minutes away". While the statement holds true sometimes, maybe even most of the time, our times are changing. Riots happen at the drop of a hat (or "gentle giant"). Who keeps the streets safe then? Who keeps the cities from burning? Who's out their risking their lives while you're in your Lazy Boy a thousand miles away, watching the show live on the news, while drinking a beer and Monday morning quarterbacking everything? Cops are. They're taking the rocks, bricks, random gunshots, fire bombs etc. for what? 30-35 grand a year? And we want to gripe about them having APC's and Hummers, riot gear, helmets, body armour, and tear gas. Oh lord what are we gonna do. The cops look scary. You ever stop to think that maybe the cops are scared? Heavens no. They aren't scared. They're angry and threatening (eye roll) But we want to gripe about everything that they do. At what point are you all going to realize that being a cop today is DANGEROUS? This ain't Mayberry folks. I wake up every morning praying that today isn't the day my brother gets killed by some worthless POS just waiting for a cop to walk by so he can kill one and get 15 minutes of fame and his name in the paper.

Did the officer do anything wrong? He showed up, asked a couple questions, got invited inside, had a cup of coffee, purchased a pistol, and made a new contact. What a terrible event. How stupid to ever be cordial and hospitable to any man or woman with a badge. Don't you know they're all out to get you? To find any reason to ransack your house, seize all your property, taze you 6 times and drag you off to jail hog tied and near death? Don't you all see that you're only exacerbating the problem. How about instead of shunning an officer, next time you see one in a convenient store, buy him/her a cup of coffee and say "thanks". Would probably make his/her day. Because 99.9999% of the time, being a cop is a thankless job.

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BigBore,

I was a LEO in the Chicago area and understand your sentiment. The concern I have, however, is that I saw from the inside both the good and bad in LEO's. The majority of them are good people who have devoted their lives to helping others. We're lucky to have such men and women. There is unfortunately a percentage of them who have no business being LEO's, including those who abuse their power. When we're approached by a LEO the odds are that they're in that first category and they're no threat to us unless we've done something illegal. If we happen to be approached by those in the second category, there's no telling how that interaction will go. Since we can't know what type of LEO we're dealing with, it's prudent to be respectful but not waive our rights.

Tom,
Departments as big as CPD are mathematically inclined to have more bad apples even if the percentage is the same. I know "bad cops". The ones that let a couple grams of meth slide because the girl carrying it is attractive. Or confiscates $10,000 in a bust but only $9,000 makes it into evidence. Or name a hundred other things bad cops do. I don't know all case law. But I know what "plain sight" is. Which is what so many see as a reason not to let LEO's in your house without a warrant. While I agree that just giving LEO's a tour of your house anytime one shows up is potentially dangerous, "plain sight" only applies to ILLEGAL activity.

I'm just saying that if more people did what the OP did, tensions and misconceptions would be diminished. They are just people who have a job to do. There are bad apples no matter what your profession.

I guess I was just raised differently. My family name in the law enforcement community is synonymous with honesty and integrity. My dad and brother both got passed up for promotions because others bent rules for the "right people". But you ask any officer who knows them and those two words always arise. But I see a person in uniform and I automatically see a person I want in my corner. Whether they are good cops, or bad. I'll just accept the fact I'm lucky. At least I see it that way. This ole world gives us enough enemies.

berettaprofessor said:

One thing I've learned about garage sales is that if you put "starts at 7:00 a.m." on your signs, people will be in your driveway at 6:30 a.m.

Nobody even had to tell me not to put "handguns" on a garage sale sign. I'm only surprised that your phone didn't ring all night long.

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I'm surprised someone didn't kick his door in at 3 AM....

I have a similar dream.
In mine a yuppie couple pulls an old box out with a mint Python in it and says, "It was my father's but I'm scared of guns. Give me $100 and take it."

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Yours is probably more realistic. I remember the old timers, and I mean they were old to ME talking about finding some "poor, old, widder woman" with a rack full of Parker's, Elsies, and Lefevers and buying them up for $100.00 or so. They never actually found one, but they dreamed about it.

In reality, my conscience wouldn't let me do it anyway. Drat....

It's really sad that these days law abiding people are afraid to allow a law enforcement officer into their homes. It's even sadder that they need to be.

As a deputy sheriff if I was invited into someone's home for non-business reasons, or to ask some questions related to something else, and saw something that might not be entirely legal like some pot and a pipe, I would either not even notice it was there, or acknowledge that I'm not there for that.

This is still the USA and I'm very hesitant to tell people what to do in their own homes without a very very good reason.

What this boils down to from reading these posts is Sam1911 does not trust the police to do the right thing. He believes the police don't have the right to just ask you a question without threat of arrest, warrant and a layer.

Well if you have a stack of stolen TVs on the kitchen table and the police knock on the door that standard lawyer advise of not letting them in or talk to them is good advice for you. However If all honest citizens decide not to talk to the police for anything without a lawyer present the criminals will rule and our Representative Republic will fail at its root. And this last statement is an opinion and no bullet points will be following.

The Officer is obligated to check the report and the Officer already knew there was no law being broken on the face of the report. That officer does not want personal liability if he is wrong so he simply knocks on the door and asks what's up. Simple question to which he got a simple answer with no heavy handed action - case closed and a positive interaction from both sides.

Now when Sam says "hi Howdy" and nothing more the police will rightfully become concerned about what is going on. Not enough for a warrant but you can expect they will be researching who you are and a police visit at your yard sale should be expected. Some plain clothes detective will likely look at each of you guns you have for sale.

What A Waist Of Their Time. And yes I know you don't care about wasting their time as it's all about your right not to cooperate.
W

Would you expect the police to dispatch an officer if passers-by called 911 and reported that he was selling baseball bats, hunting knives, axes, or any number of other completely legal (though potentially dangerous) items? No, of course not.

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I used to not expect this. Now nothing surprises me. Perhaps it should be this way and perhaps it shouldn't, but I'd guess over 60% of police calls in my area have nothing to do with a violation of the law. If you consider that accidental car crashes, which usually do involve some violation of a law, are not "real intentional crimes," that number probably gets closer to 80%.

I've seen real, actual police calls which say "There are kids in the park without jackets on, it is chilly outside, I need an officer to go speak with their parents." And "It looks like a father is teaching a kid how to ride a bike on my cul-de-sac. They should be at a parking lot. I need an officer to come out."

Whether due to community service or to fear of a lawsuit if officers don't respond, police policy in a lot of places is that they actually have to respond to most of these non-law enforcement related calls.

The officer has every right to ask questions. I'm perfectly willing to stand on the porch and answer them until it either becomes a waste of my time or the questions begin to infringe on my right to not be bothered in my own home by someone stopping by unannounced in the evening. You say he's just doing his job, well so is the guy selling siding but I'm not going to invite him into my house and waste my time with him. I am under no obligation to prove to anyone that I'm not breaking any laws, if they legitimately suspect that I am then they can investigate. If that involves sending someone around to check out the garage sale then that's part of their job. They just better arrive early before someone buys the item.

Some of us just like to be left alone and don't like talking to people unless we have to.

The OP did what he thought right - and got a sale out of it!

If that isn't what you would do, fine. It's America. We have different tolerances about what we perceive to be intrusive authority. That is the whole point of what America is all about - we disagree on exactly where the line is.

We DO agree there should be a line, and we do agree that one needs to exist. We understand why and how it can be a very bad thing when there is no ability to allow or disallow an LEO entrance into our home to investigate.

Boils down to how you perceive it at that time and who the officer is. When it comes down to it, tho, it's not currently the worst problem we have - considering that most of the time we live in zoned areas and our neighbors tell us what we can do with the property, much less what we do on it. Start up an auto paint shop in a residential area and you might get a lot more than complaints - fines and court appearances for running a business not allowed in the zone will follow.

Put up a garage just to store your vehicles and it might have to conform to Life/Safety standards with a firewall, and your neighbors insistence it be over 50% masonry construction.

We accept a LOT of intrusion in our lives about what we do - you want to drill a water well inside the city limits and disconnect from the grid? Good luck with that. Not happening.

But we get all bent out of shape that someone reported a firearms issue about you, when it seems we can't get them out to shush our neighbor's wild party at 2AM playing Led Zeppelin and what seems to be drug paraphernalia scattered across the lawn.

Well, the police is us, not some organization which is in opposition to us. We established it, fund it, and direct it's activities thru our local government. Standing to one side and saying "The cops are the problem." doesn't cut it - you pay them and tell them what to do, fix YOUR problem. Get MORE involved instead of setting yourself up as a victim.

"I would never let them in my house." means you've lost trust in what they do - time to go find out exactly what YOUR problem is. They are your public employees.

I'm reading the same attitude that exists in Ferguson, MO - the people threw their hands up in the air, quit exercising their civic power to control circumstances, and played victim to what their employees were doing. Did that city council allow more liquor stores into the neighborhood than grocery stores? Time to organize, vote them out, and take back control.

If you aren't part of your local government in some way, then you are to blame. Don't trust the cops? Entirely on your back - you gave up your responsibility and want to sit around and feel victimized and oppressed.

American citizens who embrace and exercise their Constitutional Rights aren't afraid of public servants who take care of the dirty work policing their less than ethical neighbors. I keep reading about how cops are the problem in somebody's life, but I don't see communities disbanding their force and doing the work themselves. That never seems to come up - if anything as communities grow the first thing they organize is a fire department and second, a police department. Not all that many involve their local government in the utilities, but they often adopt code to control what buildings you put up and the activities in them.

So what a cop came by to ask what's up? We all know he already knew it was legal. Legal is legal, nothing to worry about. Inviting him in is entirely up to you. Make your decision.

You are either part of the society you live in or not - just don't blame us for your lack of participation in it. You bring that on yourself. The OP decided it was "Shop with a Cop" day and it was a good deal for both of them.

What this boils down to from reading these posts is Sam1911 does not trust the police to do the right thing. He believes the police don't have the right to just ask you a question without threat of arrest, warrant and a layer.

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That's two different points.

1) Cops may "do the right thing" or they may not. The "right thing" as the officer sees it, might not be in YOUR best interest. We have the right to not be "casually" investigated to see what crimes we MIGHT be committing, and inviting an officer into your home is, legally speaking, allowing him to observe and take action on whatever he happens to see while there. This might be an actual law violation you were never aware of, or might be a matter of something the officer doesn't like (or YOU, the officer doesn't like) and that s/he can make your life quite difficult with, even if you'll eventually (after lawyers, time, money, and anguish) be exonerated for. Such examples are so very common and easy to find that I will forego providing specific cases.

2) Do the police have a "right" to ask you whatever question they want? Of course they do! The police are trained in the art of getting people to say things, freely, of their own will. Especially things they really aught to keep to themselves, for their own best interest. They can ask you, or tell you, anything they feel will be useful. Those questions don't have to anything you're compelled to answer and statements don't have to be true. Words are some of the biggest tools in the law enforcement officer's tool belt.

I've never claimed anything to the contrary. You also have the right to not speak with him about your personal affairs until/unless compelled to do so.

Well if you have a stack of stolen TVs on the kitchen table and the police knock on the door that standard lawyer advise of not letting them in or talk to them is good advice for you. However If all honest citizens decide not to talk to the police for anything without a lawyer present the criminals will rule and our Representative Republic will fail at its root. And this last statement is an opinion and no bullet points will be following.

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Ok, as that is merely opinion, I can say it is quite silly and fallacious without having to refute it in a detailed manner, so thank you for that.

The Officer is obligated to check the report and the Officer already knew there was no law being broken on the face of the report. That officer does not want personal liability if he is wrong so he simply knocks on the door and asks what's up. Simple question to which he got a simple answer with no heavy handed action - case closed and a positive interaction from both sides.

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And that's what I've said repeatedly all this time. Why have you been telling me I'm wrong and you disagree?

My point was that the "simple answer" is rightly, "I have guns for sale, just like I wrote on all those signs I stuck in my front yard. Thanks for stopping in and you have a nice night, officer."

Now when Sam says "hi Howdy" and nothing more the police will rightfully become concerned about what is going on. Not enough for a warrant but you can expect they will be researching who you are and a police visit at your yard sale should be expected. Some plain clothes detective will likely look at each of you guns you have for sale.

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A refusal to have an in-depth discussion with law enforcement, when the choice is yours, cannot possibly be prima facie evidence of a crime, nor probable cause to search you and your belongings.

If they want to go look at the things you put out on your front lawn for the public to come handle, more power to them. Who cares? Their problem, not yours.

What A Waist Of Their Time. And yes I know you don't care about wasting their time as it's all about your right not to cooperate.

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Exactly so, and I think that means we're in perfect agreement!

What was all the disagreement over?

gearhead said:

The officer has every right to ask questions. I'm perfectly willing to stand on the porch and answer them until it either becomes a waste of my time or the questions begin to infringe on my right to not be bothered in my own home by someone stopping by unannounced in the evening. You say he's just doing his job, well so is the guy selling siding but I'm not going to invite him into my house and waste my time with him. I am under no obligation to prove to anyone that I'm not breaking any laws, if they legitimately suspect that I am then they can investigate. If that involves sending someone around to check out the garage sale then that's part of their job. They just better arrive early before someone buys the item.

Some of us just like to be left alone and don't like talking to people unless we have to.

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We'd make good neighbors gearhead.

Tirod, there's a great deal of truth in what you say, but you're setting up a pretty serious false dilemma here.

"I would never let them in my house." means you've lost trust in what they do - time to go find out exactly what YOUR problem is. They are your public employees.

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Sure. Sort of. Maybe you've lost trust in your officers being entirely on your side, there to protect you and shield you from all harm. But that's really never been their job. Their job is to root out, find, stop, and set up for punishment any violations of the law. Or any things they THINK might be violations of the law. Whether those things are done by "baddy bad men" lawbreaking types, or innocent little you. You don't have a halo after all.

Despite your best intentions and beliefs, that might not be in your best interest. The problem with "I've got nothing to hide," is that all too frequently it isn't as true as folks thought it was.

I'm reading the same attitude that exists in Ferguson, MO - the people threw their hands up in the air, quit exercising their civic power to control circumstances, and played victim to what their employees were doing. Did that city council allow more liquor stores into the neighborhood than grocery stores? Time to organize, vote them out, and take back control.

If you aren't part of your local government in some way, then you are to blame. Don't trust the cops? Entirely on your back - you gave up your responsibility and want to sit around and feel victimized and oppressed.

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This is certainly true on the "macro" level. I.e.: how should society work?

But it isn't useful on the personal "micro" level. I.e.: How should I handle X situation as a private individual.

At the worst it seems like you're saying, Officer Joe shows up at my door and wants to come in and look at my guns, and if I'm not terribly happy about that all I can do is say, "dang, I should have attended more City Council meetings."

We have the right to not be "casually" investigated to see what crimes we MIGHT be committing, and inviting an officer into your home is, legally speaking, allowing him to observe and take action on whatever he happens to see while there.

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At this point, I'm not sure that you understand how this whole thing really works. Even if a lot of departments actually had the manpower to perform investigations such as this, legally speaking, you'd be hard-pressed to ever get a conviction, much less find grounds to prosecute, if the officer did not have a valid reason to enter the domicile in the first place.

When I said, "we have the right to not be "casually" investigated to see what crimes we MIGHT be committing," I was specifically referring to what is, in effect, happening when you invite a law enforcement officer into your home or other property just because he wants to look around, or has to "check that things are on the up-and-up." You don't know what he'll see that he doesn't like, or what law you might have broken that you didn't even know about, or what that metal clip doo-hicky is that your teenager's dumb stoner friend left on your kitchen counter... etc. Maybe the officer will ignore any questionable thing he may see that doesn't pertain precisely to his reason for stopping by. Maybe he won't. Not in your best interest to be so accommodating as to let him wander through, willingly.

Even if a lot of departments actually had the manpower to perform investigations such as this,

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That's really irrelevant. This department had the manpower to send someone over to check out a yard sale, and the officer obtained voluntary admittance into the residence, and even the owner's gun cabinet. Doesn't take a whole lot of manpower.

... legally speaking, you'd be hard-pressed to ever get a conviction, much less find grounds to prosecute, if the officer did not have a valid reason to enter the domicile in the first place.

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Are you saying that an invitation from the homeowner to come inside and look around is not a valid reason?

This is an interesting thread and very instructive.

To me it really illustrates the difference between how the world "is" and
how we would like it "to be".

We live in the middle somewhere I guess, but even believing that colors our interpretation of events.

what that metal clip doo-hicky is

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I literally have one of those on my counter, it's a hemostat that I use for removing hooks from fish mouths but to an overzealous cop (in another state) it could be viewed as drug paraphernalia.
When we ran cattle it wasn't unusual to find syringes and needles in our trucks and homes that a metro raised cop who doesn't know country people do their own vet work but instead could view it as contraband, same could be said of diabetics or others with conditions they self treat.