Compliance with 922r question

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Turftech1

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Hi everybody,

New to the forum here. I have a question, maybe it's a dumb one.

I posted a video of my son shooting some sporting clays (with slow-mo of the clays bursting), to a motorbike forum I am a member of, which has an "off topic" area.

The first reply was, "I wouldn't be posting videos of yourself violating section 922r."

The SKS my son is shooting is totally factory, except that it has a Montecarlo style stock, and the bayonet is removed.

The stock is made in America, so I am wondering how section 922r applies at all. Isn't section 922r the one that prohibits adding 10 or more imported items to a semi-auto rifle?

Is 922r expired? I have a LEO friend who said it was, but am not really sure?

Here's the video I posted.
What's your take?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGsEPCF_OAk


I appreciate any helpful answers.
 
Turftech1 said:
The stock is made in America, so I am wondering how section 922r applies at all. Isn't section 922r the one that prohibits adding 10 or more imported items to a semi-auto rifle?
Click to expand...

The rough sketch version of 922r is that it says that if certain types of firearms are altered from their approved import configuration, then 50% or more of the parts must be US made. So, it's possible that by changing a stock you trigger 922r BS and therefore must also change other parts on the rifle to make it 922r compliant.

It's an awful mess of legislation.
 
ClickClickD'oh said:
The rough sketch version of 922r is that it says that if certain types of firearms are altered from their approved import configuration, then 50% or more of the parts must be US made. So, it's possible that by changing a stock you trigger 922r BS and therefore must also change other parts on the rifle to make it 922r compliant.

It's an awful mess of legislation.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply ClickClickD'oh.

I guess that could be possible, but I know lots of guys put Tapco stocks on SKS rifles. I think this would be the same, just a different style.... maybe all those guys are violating 922r too???? IDK.

Anyone know for sure if it's legal to put a Tapco stock on a SKS?
 
The conversation if anyone ever asks goes like this:
"Is that 922r compliant?"
"Why yes it is."
"Prove it."
"You prove that it isn't. I took great pains to make it look 'authentic'. In fact, even if you find a part stamped made in Russia, there's nothing illegal about me having that stamped on an American made hunk of metal for the 'authentic feel'. " :D
 
Looking at several of the above posts, it proves just how confusing and senseless this regulation is.
The actual requirement is ten or fewer imported parts, from a list of counted parts. Not all parts on a firearm are counted.

I'm still trying to find any evidence that anyone has ever been prosecuted for a violation when they weren't already in the dock for a stack of other transgressions.
 
zoom6zoom said:
Looking at several of the above posts, it proves just how confusing and senseless this regulation is.
The actual requirement is ten or fewer imported parts, from a list of counted parts. Not all parts on a firearm are counted.
Click to expand...
Amen, that's why I asked here. I googled it, and found lots of conflicting info. That little chart where you just mark what you have swapped out or upgraded was helpful.

Thanks everybody!

It really freaked me out when that guy posted that I was violating 922r. I really try to obey the law, and make a good impression for gun owners. I pick up my shells and targets. If I shoot glass, I put it in a box to catch the pieces. Basically, no-trace shooting.
 
OK, so here's what my research boiled down to when I looked at this awhile back.

The Chinese SKS rifles brought in while they still could, were imported as sporting rifles. That means you can only swap parts with sporting alternatives. So you can replace the stock with a non-folding fixed stock if the original stock breaks. There was a letter from the ATF to the NRA for an article floating around that specifically said you could.

The Yugo SKS was imported as a C&R and has to stay stock. Totally. If it is modified from its C&R form in any way, it no longer qualifies.

As far as folks buying stocks, most sellers have a "make sure you are 922r compliant" which means if it's illegal, it's your fault. It is probably illegal to put removable mags on just about any SKS, but you still see them everywhere.

If you replace enough parts with US parts, you can do whatever you like. Keep proof of the parts purchase. But you CAN trigger 922r by simply adding US parts to the rifle.

I am not a lawyer, do not take anything I say as gospel. This is a gross oversimplification, and I can point to many sites which conflict with it. The only way to be sure is to ask the ATF and get a letter. There are so many caveats as far as date of import, date of purchase, country of origin that it is a mess. There are also conflicting ATF letters out there.

Edit:
from http://www.victorinc.com/SKS-FAQ.html:
What modifications can I do to my imported fixed-magazine SKS Carbine without violating Title 18 USC § 922(r)?

As long as your SKS Carbine contains more than ten imported parts, the answer is: “Not very much”. Some guidance can be gleaned from a letter to the NRA from ATF Technology Branch, printed in the NRA magazine, American Rifleman May, 1994. It specifically mentions the following the following modifications of an standard SKS Carbine would not be violations of Title 18 USC § 922(r):

1. Replace the existing stock and handguard with a non-folding wooden or synthetic stock having either a Monte Carlo or thumbhole design. [See the discussion of pistol grips and thumbhole stocks.]

2. Attach a muzzle mounted recoil compensator, provided that the device is not also designed as a flash suppressor.

3. Replace the existing 10 round magazine with a fixed 5 round magazine or install a block in the well of the 10 round fixed magazine to limit its capacity to 5 rounds.

4. Replace the existing receiver cover with a cover having a telescopic sight based and/or rings.

5. Replace the front and/or rear sight or install an ambidextrous safety.

The full text of this letter can be found in an older SKS FAQ, found on James Bardwell’s old web site. The letter is dated, so it does not address Yugoslavian Type 59/66 that are imported with bayonets, night sites, and grenade launchers. It is reasonable to assume that all three of these features must be removed if these rifles are modified out of their C&R status. The letter also mentions detachable magazines (see the LCMM discussion) and fixed large capacity magazines (see the 20-round magazine discussion), but these modifications are no longer allowed.
Click to expand...
 
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yugorpk said:
Why don't you ask everyone who's ever been convicted of violating 922r what did them in. Shouldn't take long.
Click to expand...
I think it is just dealers/manufacturers. I don't think an end user has ever been charged with a 922r violation.

It appears that 922R only applies to the SKS because they are all military surplus under 925(d)(3) but not because they are non-sporting under 925(d)(3). I suspect that if some company were to make brand new fixed magazine SKS rifles that were never surplus they would qualify as sporting by not having "Semiautomatic Assault Weapon" features under 27 CFR 478.11
(b) A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least 2 of—
(1) A folding or telescoping stock,
(2) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon,
(3) A bayonet mount,
(4) A flash suppressor or threaded barrel designed to accommodate a flash suppressor, and
(5) A grenade launcher;
Click to expand...

Mike
 
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entropy said:
I usually shoot Sporting Clays with a shotgun. Your son must be one heckuva shot to hit 'em with an SKS, Turftech1.....;)
Click to expand...

Thanks! He is. Honestly, open sights he's better than me. My eyes aren't what they used to be.

That is only at 15 yards.

He learned to shoot on an open sight .22 bolt action, (Savage Mark II) I wanted him to learn to use open sights, and to make his shots count, not just "spray & Pray", he can acquire a target lightning fast with open sights.
 
Sporting Clays is a shooting game that involves shooting at clay pigeons whilst in flight, or fastly rolling on the ground, at various ranges. So you're telling us what your son does is shoot at static clay pigeons at 15 yards, correct?

Unless your son is less than 5 years old,

Yawn. I was tugging your chain, hence the wink smilie.
 
This comes up again and again and again with the Yugo SKS s. I have 2 I've had for over 10 years, left bone stock just 'cause. It's an overly heavy rifle that begs to be lightened by dumping the bayonet (IIRC OK per ATF as it is temporary), the grenade launcher, re-stocking and so on. As I understand things, we're mostly stuck in 922r land. It's tempting to say 'no one will care' about such a technical violation, but that isn't done on the THR. And it is telling to remember that no one much cared about un-papered NFA items prior to 1968 figuring you were just dodging some goofy paperwork and a tax. And then one day, they stared caring about such once trivial things in a big way...Glad your son enjoys the rifle and does so well with it.
 
Looking at several of the above posts, it proves just how confusing and senseless this regulation is.
The actual requirement is ten or fewer imported parts, from a list of counted parts.
Click to expand...

You are of course correct, and I misstated the facts...

This from the Tapco 922r page:

When considering compliance the big thing to keep in mind is the magic number 10! The infinite wisdom of the federal government has decided that it is unlawful for your semi-auto rifle or shotgun to have more than 10 imported parts from their select list of 20 parts. Many describe this in terms of U.S. parts count, but in reality this should be the foreign parts count. Now this is where the debate occurs

http://www.tapco.com/section922r/
 
It has been explained in previous posts on THR that compliance with 922r is a all or nothing law. That is you can not replace fewer than 10 parts. You must replace enough 10 parts with U.S. made one at one time to be in compliance.

However if I am reading the link correctly it is legal from me to replace the foreign 10 round magazine in my stock Saiga Sporter carbine with a U.S. made 20 round one as I am not adding any foreign made parts.

From the link; "It is not the number of U.S. made parts you have; it is the number of foreign parts you have. If you have a U.S. made magazine in your weapon and your weapon is compliant with it in, by removing your magazine you are not ADDING more foreign made parts, so you continue to be compliant. Unless you put a foreign made magazine in, thus adding foreign made parts, you are not making your weapon noncompliant."
 
BSA1 said:
It has been explained in previous posts on THR that compliance with 922r is a all or nothing law. That is you can not replace fewer than 10 parts. You must replace enough 10 parts with U.S. made one at one time to be in compliance.

However if I am reading the link correctly it is legal from me to replace the foreign 10 round magazine in my stock Saiga Sporter carbine with a U.S. made 20 round one as I am not adding any foreign made parts.

From the link; "It is not the number of U.S. made parts you have; it is the number of foreign parts you have. If you have a U.S. made magazine in your weapon and your weapon is compliant with it in, by removing your magazine you are not ADDING more foreign made parts, so you continue to be compliant. Unless you put a foreign made magazine in, thus adding foreign made parts, you are not making your weapon noncompliant."
Click to expand...
Now I am confused again.:eek:
 
One of the things I have come across a few times in my study of 922r is that the ATF has taken conflicting stances on various provisions. I think I can see why.

Makes you wonder which congressional aid wrote this law, and what he/she was smoking.
 
One thing that gets missed often is 922 (r) is not about possession. Nothing says you cannot own a firearm with more than 10 imported parts.
 
922r is enforced primarily for importers. I don't think any individual has ever been prosecuted for it. Someone makes a handy spreadsheet though that lets you plug in the American parts you have and shows you what more you need.
 
I have done a lot of reading on various websites and forums and all I have got from it is a headache. This law is so poorly written no one seems to agree on what it means.

I find it hard to believe that all 10 points worth of parts must be changed at one time. For example if I lose the factory magazine to my stock condition Sporter carbine I can not replace it with one made in the U.S.A. or about if the sear goes bad I can't just replace the trigger with one made in the U.S.A. There are no other parts I want to replace (or even possible) so 10 points are not achievable.

The 10 points can really only apply when converting Sporter Carbine to AK configuration as that is where you get the required number of parts.

I keep hoping someone more knowledgeable than me chimes in.
 
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BSA1 said:
I have done a lot of reading on various websites and forums and all I have got from it is a headache. This law is so poorly written no one seems to agree on what it means.

I find it hard to believe that all 10 points worth of parts must be changed at one time. For example if I lose the factory magazine to my stock condition Sporter carbine I can not replace it with one made in the U.S.A. or about if the sear goes bad I can't just replace the trigger with one made in the U.S.A. There are no other parts I want to replace (or even possible) so 10 points are not achievable.

The 10 points can really only apply when converting Sporter Carbine to AK configuration as that is where you get the required number of parts.

I keep hoping someone more knowledgeable than me chimes in.
Click to expand...
That is exactly how I feel.
The Tapco site makes it look like you NEED to change out 10 or more parts with American parts if you do anything. Other sites say that you just can't add MORE than 10 foreign made accessories, one says that if you alter it at all, you need to alter it enough that fewer than 10 of the parts are original.

I have the ATF letter saying that adding a Monte Carlo stock is an approved alteration. So I'm not worried, but as much as I love the SKS, I think if I was going to try to really do a conversion, I would just buy an AK to begin with.
 
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