LGS wants me to change 4473...

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USAF_Vet

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I know this has been brought up before, but this situation is unique enough for a new thread.

I got a voice mail from my LGS, regarding a recent purchase. They want me to come in and change my place of birth.

I was born on Altus Air Force Base, Oklahoma. Born on base, in the base hospital. My birth certificate says Altus AFB, OK.

Every 4473 I've ever filled out has my place of birth as Altus Air Force Base, and the only time I've needed to make a change is when I wrote Altus AFB.

They want me to change it to the city, not the base. To me, that wouldn't be accurate.

I'm going to call them in the morning and basically tell them in a very polite way that I will not alter the form. It has not been an issue in the past (I've purchased several guns from them in the past).

I'm thinking this is simply a case of the clerk or reviewer not knowing that most military bases are treated as cities, independent and having their own zip code. Either way, I don't feel comfortable changing it.
 
That may be, but I'm still not comfortable falsifying information on a government form. If you were born on Travis Air Force Base, CA and put that on your 4473 as place of birth, and the LGS wanted you to put something else, like Fairfield, CA, would you?
 
If the base is located within the city limits of Altus how is that not being accurate? If anything it is just redundant information (i.e. I was born in Altus Air Force Base which is within the city limits of Altus which is within the State of Oklahoma which is within the country of The United States of America).
 
The point I was trying to make is that the ATF might think differently.

At this point we don't know the reason for the request. It would be one thing if it's just the LGS' idea. It would be another if it's the ATF's idea.
 
BSA1 said:
If the base is located within the city limits of Altus how is that not being accurate? If anything it is just redundant information (i.e. I was born in Altus Air Force Base which is within the city limits of Altus which is within the State of Oklahoma which is within the country of The United States of America).
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It's not within city limits.

The base maintains itself as an independent area, not a part of a city, despite sharing the same name as the nearest city. My birth certificate does not say Altus, OK, but Altus Air Force Base, OK.


If it were an ATF audit, why did they catch it on the 4473 I filled out on Oct. 25th, but not the one I filled out on Oct 10th? Seems close enough to find both if they were in error.

As I said, I'll call them in the morning and ask why. It's never been an issue in the past. It wasn't an issue when they checked, and had a manager double check the form. So it begs the question of "why now?".
 
Military bases in the U.S. are treated the same as towns or cities for mailing addresses, places of residence, etc. The form is simply "Tinker AFB, OK 73145" or "Ft. Dix, NJ 08640"; no city need be given. Something like a recruiting office, of course, will use its normal street and city address.

I suggest calling or e-mailing BATFE and asking them, but if your birth certificate says "Altus AFB" or "Altus Air Force Base", I can't imagine that not being acceptable. Now for obtaining a copy of your birth certificate, you would contact the state records bureau, just as you would if born anywhere in OK.

It sounds a bit like a LGS employee with a worrywart complex.

Jim
 
The place of birth (city/state or even country) is part of the process for calling a 4473 into NICS. If the FBI never objected before, I'd suspect the LGS is acting out of ignorance with regards to the form.

I agree with the original poster and would refuse to falsify anything on the 4473.
dontliefortheotherguy.gif
 
USAF_Vet .... They want me to come in and change my place of birth.
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Once the dealer has signed the 4473 and the firearm has been transferred, the 4473 cannot be altered or edited. If information was missing and the error not discovered until later........then a new 4473 is filled out with the updated information and attached to the original 4473.




They want me to change it to the city, not the base. To me, that wouldn't be accurate.
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The gun store doesn't get to decide where you were born. When you sign the 4473 you certify that your answers are "true, correct and complete".




I'm going to call them in the morning and basically tell them in a very polite way that I will not alter the form....
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Remind them that editing the original 4473 is a violation of Federal law. That should give them pause to reflect.:D




I'm thinking this is simply a case of the clerk or reviewer not knowing that most military bases are treated as cities, independent and having their own zip code. Either way, I don't feel comfortable changing it.
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I just had my compliance inspection..........ATF doesn't really give a rats hiney where someone was born and there is no penalty on the dealer if the buyer/transferee puts down Timbuktu as his place of birth.



4thPointOfContact The place of birth (city/state or even country) is part of the process for calling a 4473 into NICS.
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Nope.
FBI NICS checks only ask for the state the buyer/transferee was born in or the country if born overseas. FBI NICS never asks for the city.
 
Jim K said:
Military bases in the U.S. are treated the same as towns or cities for mailing addresses, places of residence, etc. The form is simply "Tinker AFB, OK 73145" or "Ft. Dix, NJ 08640"; no city need be given. Something like a recruiting office, of course, will use its normal street and city address.

I suggest calling or e-mailing BATFE and asking them, but if your birth certificate says "Altus AFB" or "Altus Air Force Base", I can't imagine that not being acceptable. Now for obtaining a copy of your birth certificate, you would contact the state records bureau, just as you would if born anywhere in OK.

It sounds a bit like a LGS employee with a worrywart complex.

Jim
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Now for obtaining a copy of your birth certificate, you would contact the state records bureau, just as you would if born anywhere in OK.
Click to expand...

Now for obtaining a copy of your birth certificate, you would contact the state records bureau, just as you would if born anywhere in OK.
Click to expand...

I actually had to contact the county clerks office for a certified copy of my birth certificate. When my mother still had my original and I needed a copy, that's who I contacted. I now have my original (and that copy) birth certificate, and they both say Altus Air Force Base.

As for the NICS, my CPL allows the LGS to skip the call. They call the MSP to ensure the CPL is in good standing and process the form as a "proceed." Prior to obtaining my CPL, when a NICS check was performed, all my 4473s had Altus Air Force Base, OK as place of birth. None had an issue with the FBI check.

I'm thinking it's either ignorance on the employee's part if they are doing a records check, or ignorance on the auditors part if they are going through an ATF audit. I'll find out in the morning.
 
Dogtown,
Thanks. That's what I was thinking. I'll be sure to remind them.

I mentioned before that during the form check, they had me change AFB to be fully spelled out. Whether or not that needed to be done, I don't know, but as I was still in the shop and hadn't yet taken possession of the fire arm, I was willing to change it. But this was two weeks ago. It's long since been processed and filed.
 
Jolly Rogers said:
There cannot be any abbreviations in the addresses. Every word has to be spelled out completely. Did you put OK.?
Joe
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The state can be abbreviated, or more correctly, put as the two-letter code. The city, on the other hand, needs to be fully spelled out. If the city's official name has an abbreviation in it (St. George, UT but not Saint Paul, MN), that's fine. I wonder if the "AFB" instead of "Air Force Base" is the issue. I had to "correct" a 4473 once because the city of birth wasn't readable to someone who was going through it in some sort of audit. (looked fine to me but someone didn't like it. :) ) As dogtown_tom said, I filled out a new one with the exact same info, but with the town written in a more gooder manner. It was attached to the original.

Matt
 
Maybe there is a revision, but a 4473 I have doesn't even mention that section in the instructions, let alone require that common abbreviations (like St. Paul) or state names be spelled out. I can see that something like FL for Fort Lauderdale or LA for Los Angeles would not be acceptable, but Blotz AFB or Ft. Zilch?

Jim
 
From the ATF website:
ATF has received a number of inquiries regarding the use of abbreviations on ATF Form 4473 (Firearms Transaction Record) and in the acquisition and disposition (A&D) book entries. As a general rule, abbreviations should be avoided on Form 4473 or in entries in the A&D book. This is to avoid confusion or prevent providing an incomplete record. However, there are a number of abbreviations that are allowed.
The use of standard postal State abbreviations
(i.e. AK, DE, VA, TX, etc.) or an easily and
readily recognized abbreviation such as Mass. for Massachusetts is permitted. Additionally, the use of D.L. to denote “driver’s license” and O.P. to denote “operator’s permit” are also permitted. In general, if an abbreviation is legible and readily understood it would be acceptable. However, if the abbreviation is not understood, you will be told not to utilize it and continued use will result in either the issuance of a report of violation for the appropriate recordkeeping provision or other appropriate action.
As a rule of thumb, if you are unsure as to whether
or not an abbreviation is readily understood, the abbreviation should not be used. Please keep in mind the importance of these records to law enforcement and the need to understand the abbreviations if you go out of business. It is important that the entries
are written legibly and completely so everyone can understand them. ATF thanks you for your efforts.
 
I will have to ask my daughter if she had any problems with the last gun she bought from a dealer. She was born in Yokosuka, Japan, albeit in the Naval Hospital on base. Same with my youngest, but he was almost born in the ambulance on the way from Yokohama to Yokosuka. I'm not sure just how this would have played out as I don't think the ambulance would be considered as "an extension" of the U.S. like the base was. I was told that had he been delivered in the ambulance he would have had dual citizenship in both countries....
 
Jolly Rogers There cannot be any abbreviations in the addresses. Every word has to be spelled out completely. Did you put OK.?
Joe
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100% wrong....the 4473 even uses an example with an abbreviation on Question 20a.


morcey2 The state can be abbreviated, or more correctly, put as the two-letter code. The city, on the other hand, needs to be fully spelled out.
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No. Such. Restriction. :banghead:
"NYC, NY" is perfectly acceptable, as is "Wash. D.C."


Derry 1946 From the ATF website:.....
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Nailed it.
Unfortunately too many gun shops don't read or have never read anything on the ATF website, much less the instructions on the 4473.



deadin I will have to ask my daughter if she had any problems with the last gun she bought from a dealer. She was born in Yokosuka, Japan, albeit in the Naval Hospital on base. Same with my youngest, but he was almost born in the ambulance on the way from Yokohama to Yokosuka. I'm not sure just how this would have played out as I don't think the ambulance would be considered as "an extension" of the U.S. like the base was. I was told that had he been delivered in the ambulance he would have had dual citizenship in both countries....
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"Japan" is the only correct answer for her place of birth.....and she would write that response on Que. 3
 
dogtown tom beat me to it. I only have to put "Canada" in Question 3, and don't need to worry about a GS clerk who doesn't like either "St. Johns" or "Pepperrell AFB" when I fill out a 4473.
 
Jim K said:
Maybe there is a revision, but a 4473 I have doesn't even mention that section in the instructions, let alone require that common abbreviations (like St. Paul) or state names be spelled out. I can see that something like FL for Fort Lauderdale or LA for Los Angeles would not be acceptable, but Blotz AFB or Ft. Zilch?

Jim
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I was born in St. Paul, MN. I have always listed it as St. Paul, MN, and have always had 'proceed's.
 
My youngest daughter was born at Maxwell AFB, in the Air University Regional Hospital. We go with the flow - if that gets corrected to Montgomery, AL, fine. If whomever wants it to be Maxwell, fine - don't recall what the birth certificate says, but we give them what they want. Hardly worth the effort to argue.
 
Its their paperwork so help them out if they perceive an issue. Maybe a past audit mentioned it for them regardless of everyone else. I would note at the end of the new form that this amendment is provided at the request of the lgs. Since you are helping them, they might help you out with a free transfer or ammo discount. There is certainly no harm done besides wasted time and gas.
 
dogtown tom said:
Once the dealer has signed the 4473 and the firearm has been transferred, the 4473 cannot be altered or edited. If information was missing and the error not discovered until later........then a new 4473 is filled out with the updated information and attached to the original 4473.

.
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That's not really accurate either.


https://www.atf.gov/file/58676/download



Errors and Omissions on the Form 4473:

If, after the firearm has been transferred, you discover that the Form 4473 is incomplete or was improperly completed, do not alter the original. Instead, you should make a photocopy of the inaccurate Form 4473. Only the buyer or transferee may make changes or corrections to Sections A and C of the photocopy. You or an authorized representative must make any changes or corrections to Sections B and D of the photocopy. Do NOT make the changes on the original Form 4473. Attach the corrected photocopy to the original Form 4473 and retain as part of your records
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.




More info here

https://www.atf.gov/file/5046/download
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