Greg Elfritz article

If you can somehow close with an armed individual without being shot.... that weapon is just a club if it's empty (or it's loaded but you can prevent the shooter from using it...). No this isn't a good situation, and no, the good guy(s) won't always win... but it beats allowing someone to kill you as easily as they'd kill a rabbit or sheep...

Yes, it's a far better course of action to retreat -if that's possible... or to hide and not be noticed... -once again if that's possible...

No I'm not a martial artist, nor am I physically imposing or strong (or even young...) but there are times when active resistance is your only choice so you take a deep breath and do what's needed (hopefully). Most of us, though, will just freeze up and be victims....

Well I am a martial artist and I say it would be tough to get close but not impossible.

One would be wise to learn escrima, use of the bo(staff), and the sword(kendo and western sword fighting.) You can improvise a club or staff in many situations. Plus real knife fighting training with serious size knives (10 inch or longer blades) can be useful.

What you are doing is learning techniques, and then is situations improvising weapons to use those techniques.

It's alot easier, and quicker, for folks to learn to use weapons than hands and feet.

But none of these methods beat a good Glock!

Deaf

Anyone here know this author?

Anyone here trained with him?

Anyone here know this author?

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Been reading his stuff for years and have friends who have trained with him. Seems to have his head on right.

IMO the Ellifritz article gives very good ideas for strong, fit people to use. Personally if I tried to be one of the rushers, realistically I'd more likely just be in the way of people better able to subdue the attacker. Which pretty much sums up why I decided to get a gun and learn to use it (the equalizer proposition), but doesn't address the issue of what someone like me could do in a gun-less situation.

Trunk Monkey said:

Did you read the part of this article where the 61 Y/O woman helped disarm Jared Loughner?

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Maybe that was another article, to make sure I didn't miss it the first time around I just re-read the link you originally posted and do not see it there.

Al Thompson said:

Been reading his stuff for years and have friends who have trained with him. Seems to have his head on right.

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I've met him a number of times. A very good instructor and quite articulate.

He does fantastic training for folks who work in a "non permissive" environment. He teaches simple group ambush tactics and how to use improvised tools with the strongest muscle groups to thwart an attack for unarmed defenders.

He works for Tactical Defense Institute when he's not working for his own company, and offers quite a good array of classes.

If you have an opportunity, go train with Greg.

Trunk Monkey said:

My mistake it was this article

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/active-shooter-response-for-the-armed-citizen

Active Shooter Response For The Armed Citizen by Greg Elfritz

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That is a VERY good article, I bookmarked it.

Yes, if the strong fit people were already tackling the terrorist and my task is to take away the magazine, ok, I could do that.

Trunk Monkey said:

But that's not always going to be an option.

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Didn't say it was.. only that it beats it.

Deaf

bearingarms has a piece today titled 'Ten Ways To Avoid Being Killed During A Terrorist Attack', you can see it at http://bearingarms.com/ten-ways-avoid-killed-terrorist-attack/.

Two points impressed me:
1. weapons can be improvised: "Whenever unarmed in a public area, make it a habit (or game) to choose three nearby items that would make a good weapon if things turn dire." Looking back through our thread here I see that people did mention improvised weapons but sort of in passing, probably the more experienced folks here caught the point but I didn't until I saw it spelled out in the BA article.
2. "Have a basic understanding of trauma medical care – in the aftermath of a bombing or shooting incident, many people will be bleeding to death and you have two or three minutes to save lives. This means you need to understand mass-casualty triage principals and some basic tactical combat casualty care (TCCC) techniques. Be ready to provide aid such as tourniquets, spinal immobilization and safe patient evacuation from threatening circumstances." I think even without further training a person could carry a tourniquet, a maxi-pad, and one of those tinfoil blanket things -- if the whole thing we are talking about here is saving lives, well, this is a way to do it.

Deaf Smith said:

Well I am a martial artist and I say it would be tough to get close but not impossible.

One would be wise to learn escrima, use of the bo(staff), and the sword(kendo and western sword fighting.) You can improvise a club or staff in many situations. Plus real knife fighting training with serious size knives (10 inch or longer blades) can be useful.

What you are doing is learning techniques, and then is situations improvising weapons to use those techniques.

It's alot easier, and quicker, for folks to learn to use weapons than hands and feet.

But none of these methods beat a good Glock!

Deaf

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Deaf Smith,

I agree with your post but you forget we poor Texas are limited to blades with a 5.5 inch blade max for carry, Where's Jim Bowie when you need him?

Anyway I'd like to learn a martial art of some form I just learned the very basic fundamentals of Kempo maybe it's time I attend some classes, could come in handy if I'm ever in this sort of situation.

Barry the Bear said:

Deaf Smith,

I agree with your post but you forget we poor Texas are limited to blades with a 5.5 inch blade max for carry, Where's Jim Bowie when you need him?

Anyway I'd like to learn a martial art of some form I just learned the very basic fundamentals of Kempo maybe it's time I attend some classes, could come in handy if I'm ever in this sort of situation.

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Well I hope Barry that Texas will see the light like Florida and make it a Concealed Weapons License. Florida allows you to carry anything if you have a CCW (well maybe not ANYTHING but close.)

If you want to learn H2H, but don't have the 4 years to be a black belt, I strongly suggest Krav Maga. Besides TKD, Judo, JDK, boxing, and some Escrima and Kali I've had, Krav Maga I did for over a year.

But you can bet the Islamist Terrorist will have big knives to. They won't worry about any silly little law.

Deaf

+1 on Krav Maga. Several places in the various metro areas in Texas.

I'm out in the San Antone area I'm sure there's a few instructors here, thanks guys I'll check out the krav Maga places.

"Anyone here know this author?

Anyone here trained with him?"

I know and have trained with him. He knows his stuff, and he is a very serious student on these issues. He is one of the staff instructors at the Tactical Defense Institute in Ohio.

Greg also travels around the world in some very primitive and non-permissive environments, so he has definite personal stake in knowing what options may be effective if you're unable to be in possession of a firearm.

old lady new shooter said:

IMO the Ellifritz article gives very good ideas for strong, fit people to use. Personally if I tried to be one of the rushers, realistically I'd more likely just be in the way of people better able to subdue the attacker. Which pretty much sums up why I decided to get a gun and learn to use it (the equalizer proposition), but doesn't address the issue of what someone like me could do in a gun-less situation.

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old lady new shooter said:

That is a VERY good article, I bookmarked it.

Yes, if the strong fit people were already tackling the terrorist and my task is to take away the magazine, ok, I could do that.

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My intention in to give ideas...

From the 1st article

Set up an ambush.The head-on charge usually isn’t the best plan. If you can hide behind cover and wait for the killer to pass you, you’ll have access to his back. You don’t have to fight fair. Approach him from behind and hit him in the head with something hard. Many of you carry pocket knives, even in areas where you can’t carry your gun. Approach from behind and bury the blade into the side of his neck. Once it it buried to the hilt, aggressively “stir the soup” with the handle of the knife. You can also plunge the blade straight downward into his chest cavity from behind. Aim to penetrate just above the collar bone and target the knife straight downward. Just like the previous technique, aggressively rotate the handle of the knife to cause more damage.

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And

Get some help. The courageous defenders on the train in France used teamwork to stop the shooter. You should too. If you have time, plan an attack from one of the ambush positions I identified above with willing friends or co-workers. If there isn’t time for a plan, you may have to start the attack yourself. As you are fighting the shooter, call out for help. Give people specific instructions what you want them to do. Sometimes people are frozen in fear. They want to help, but don’t know what to do. Yelling: “You! Grab his gun.” or “Somebody hit him in the head!” may be all the instructions needed to cause bystanders to spring into action .

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As I mentioned in the other thread, 3 bad guys cant watch 1500 people very effectively and there had to be concessioners, security, and other employees that were not in the main area as the concert goers. IOW's, Behind the bad guys


As they were shooting people and moving about they would have passed bodies on the ground.

A person playing dead could jump up and club one of them him from behind thereby eliminating 1/3rd of the terrorists.


I'm not trying to come across as being Joe Tactical; just present an idea.


I think its MOST important to repeat...in order of importance.
Mind Set, Skill Set, Tool Set




(Mods, I have a pic of inside the concert hall with dead bodies laying about.

While it is a gruesome pic to see, its valuable to be able to see a real pic of a real situation and evaluate what you could/should do.

I don't want to post it 'live' here. However, it shows what I mean about how the bad guys would have passed by bodies and if you were playing dead, could attacked the bad guy from behind. )

Thanks for not posting the picture.