Remington Outdoor Company disclosed declining sales of firearms and ammunition

"This market" has been cooling for some time... We'll see what happens as we approach the next presidential election. **IF** a Republican is elected, the cooling will continue. If not, there might be another spike...

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How do you rationalize that with the FBI statistics of increased background checks, and Ruger setting a goal of 2,000,000 guns sold in 2015?

Just bought a Remington Long Range in 30-06 for a good price. For the 80 rounds I have put through it, its been a 1 MOA rifle with silver boxed 180 grain soft point Winchester ammo, not the straightest or most consistent I have shot in a while.

This is the first 700 I have bought in decades that didn't have the long free bore that big green is so famous for. The barrel is very smooth and isn't stripping copper like mad like I have seen some of them do.

My only complaint is the Mark X trigger, but I expected to have issues with it and a Timney 510 is on the way. Tried adjusting it and could not get it below 4+ pounds and inconsistent pull never went away at the lowest setting. The Timney is a better mouse trap.

My son bought the same rifle in the same caliber earlier this year-his has the long free bore but it shoots about 1/2 MOA with the handloads it likes.

Best I can say about Remington 700s is that they seem to be a crap shoot.

I echo the sentiments of others who say this says more about remington as a company than it does about the overall state gun and ammo sales in this country

Aragon said:

A harbinger of things to com for arms and ammo sales (I hope in terms of pricing and supply):

http://www.shootingsportsretailer.com/2015/11/18/remington-faces-steep-decline-sales/

We'll have to see what the general election brings...

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Didn't read it but based on the title, not a big surprise. Remington has had off and on quality for a long time. I'll never buy anything they are associated with again.

Aragon said:

I don't think that's the case... Remington handled the purchase and move of Marlin horribly which resulted in them shipping some garbage. At the same time arms like the Marlin 60 are now better then they ever have been.

They have made some serious missteps, but they have largely recovered from a quality standpoint.

Even a lot of the hullabaloo over the Remington Model 700 eventually amounted to more about emotions than substantive product quality issues.

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The thing is, a bad reputation once acquired can be very difficult to shed. The fact that people are still bringing up these issues, whether Remington fixed them or not, just proves that.

buckhorn_cortez said:

How do you rationalize that with the FBI statistics of increased background checks, and Ruger setting a goal of 2,000,000 guns sold in 2015?

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I'm curious how much of Ruger sales is little plastic handguns?

I have a Remmy 700 SPS Tactical that is an outstanding rifle, but mine is a 2009 model.

If I were looking for a rifle today, it'd be Ruger or Savage.

If you set aside arguments of quality or substandard QC Remington is still up against the fact that for their entire product line they don't make a single firearm that I cannot get a better product for less money from another manufacturer.

They've botched too many product introductions and coasted on 1950's technological innovation for too long to even be competitive anymore

Last week I literally gave a new nearly FREE ($5) Remington semiautomatic 22 away that I won in a raffle. I donated it back partially out of charity but partially out of having no desire whatsoever to own a crappy 22

If it had been a 10/22 I would be shooting it right now

mdauben said:

The thing is, a bad reputation once acquired can be very difficult to shed. The fact that people are still bringing up these issues, whether Remington fixed them or not, just proves that.

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Even beyond the poor production quality issues look at what Remington has, or in this case, hasn't done with the R51's people sent back to them. I still see people saying that they haven't gotten their R51 back.

The first order of business Remington needs to be doing is satisfying every customer who paid for their goods, but got defective merchandise. If Remington has to hire guys on a temp basis at $25/hr to get these guns fixed, Remington better do it for any price because whatever the cost to get them fixed in a reasonable time frame is far cheaper than dissatisfied customers who will forever trash the Remington brand.

I doubt Remington has done that or will do that and thus, I cannot say that I want to buy anything they make because they have demonstrated that the customer does not come first.

"I still see people saying that they haven't gotten their R51 back."
There's no 'still' about it; no R51's have been returned. I'm gonna go and say straight up that no R51's will ever be returned. Rem's gonna hem and haw and make annual mentions of the gun (maybe), but they're counting on every buyer taking them up on the R1 1911 replacement offer. I'd love to be wrong (since I still have mine and would appreciate an upgrade) but I just don't see how a sufficient improvement can be realized with what Remington has to work with.

I think they, like Colt (and arguably, H&K), grew fat on stable/captive markets over the decades, and blew too much of their profits on vanity project boondoggles and bonuses (and in the case of Remington, on companies they have no business plan for), and at this point are 'competitively bankrupt.' By which I mean, that in order for them to make the changes needed to right themselves and return to competitive standing, they would run out of operating capital. I'm not sure how Remington has made it this far, to be honest, considering the sheer number of failing companies, failed products, unprecedented recalls, and expensive reorganization/relocation. Either Freedom Group investors know something we don't, or they are even more incompetent than we ever imagined.

I fear their only option left is to start hacking and lopping off everything that isn't making money or is owned outright, and use the capital raised/saved to reorganize into a much smaller, more focused company specializing in whatever they currently do that makes the most money (I'm guessing outdoor attire and accessories, and no I'm not kidding)

TCB

Maybe if they made something worth buying that didn't need to be recalled. But that's none of my business.

Does Remington make AR's, handguns? Firearms makers can't live on deer guns alone.

They make an expensive AR (not sure of the quality, but I'm not hopeful), a more expensive piston AR (same thoughts), and the R1 1911 (can't be much profit at the price they sell) and the R380 (a re-branded Rohrbaugh) which is just now entering the market on the heals of the R51.

FWIW, the R51 would have been a clever, successful little gun in the hands of practically anyone that isn't part of Freedom Group or Jimenez Arms' latest incarnation; the design is fine, the fubar was entirely in the execution.

TCB

Quite frankly, I'm not surprised.

Remington has really blown it lately, and people are noticing. They are now just a name, a shadow of their former selves... much like Colt, but unlike Remington, Colt's products are still solid these days.

Cooldill said:

Quite frankly, I'm not surprised.

Remington has really blown it lately, and people are noticing. They are now just a name, a shadow of their former selves... much like Colt, but unlike Remington, Colt's products are still solid these days.

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Totally agree. The problem with Colt is lack of innovation and that there are plenty of other companies that make the same thing Colt does, but for MUCH less.

Colt will not be able to keep going at that rate. It may well be worth buying an actual Colt SAA because in 20 years, Colt will be long gone.

Word on the street is that Remington hasn't been able to successfully deliver the rifles that were selected by the Military for the Precision Sniper Rifle project either, and the government is looking at the other competitors again.

The accountants run these large corporations anymore.. I have seen them destroy more than I care to mention. The older, more experienced personnel are the first to be let go because they are too "expensive". Then the accountants and management wonder where all the sales have gone...? As Bill Engvall would say, " Here's your sign..! "

No offense to all the accountants out there, as you all offer a very necessary service, but when they get involved in decisions on the direction, and day to day operations of the business, things go south pretty quick..

tjs45d said:

The accountants run these large corporations anymore.. I have seen them destroy more than I care to mention. The older, more experienced personnel are the first to be let go because they are too "expensive". Then the accountants and management wonder where all the sales have gone...? As Bill Engvall would say, " Here's your sign..! "

No offense to all the accountants out there, as you all offer a very necessary service, but when they get involved in decisions on the direction, and day to day operations of the business, things go south pretty quick..

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I totally agree. The college boys and girls that graduate think they can play businessman and they screw it up. They don't know how to manufacture a product or hire people that do, they know that company man "John Doe" has been there 25 years and makes three times what a worker in India does.

"Hey John, we appreciate all the work you've done for us, but we no longer need your services. Goodbye."

What part of Indiana you from? I use to live in Winamac and Logansport.

I'll second all that and add some.. I have been involved in manufacturing of just about everything you can think of, and no offense to all the college educated people, but, they are turning out some really uneducated and inexperienced young people. Nothing against college at all, but, I believe anyone who wants to be a manufacturing engineer should have to work as a laborer, or on the manufacturing floor for at least 4-6 years before they can get a degree in whatever discipline they are working in. Hence, the antiquated "apprenticeship" practices that were used to train the youngsters....

I'm near Fort Wayne, Indiana.

tjs45d said:

I'll second all that and add some.. I have been involved in manufacturing of just about everything you can think of, and no offense to all the college educated people, but, they are turning out some really uneducated and inexperienced young people. Nothing against college at all, but, I believe anyone who wants to be a manufacturing engineer should have to work as a laborer, or on the manufacturing floor for at least 4-6 years before they can get a degree in whatever discipline they are working in. Hence, the antiquated "apprenticeship" practices that were used to train the youngsters....

I'm near Fort Wayne, Indiana.

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Having been a manufacturing engineer hired straight out of college, I think it depends on what type of college we're talking anout. I got an associates at the nearby community college and I got hired over people who had gone to Purdue for four years. It's not that they were dumb, they just didn't get the necessary education there that warranted being hired.

Having said that, I think that experience is also relative because I remember another engineer being hired after working 20+ years on the floor at another company. He only lasted four months.

I believe it comes down to spotting talent. If you think someone has the stuff to become a great asset, but needs a little time to develop, then it's a worthy investment. Most places are in a "I need it NOW!" mentality where they believe they can't afford to spend 3 months with somebody, even at $10/hr. So apprenticeships are not even worth mentioning because that would make a hiring manager's head explode like the guy from Scanners.

It's bullcrap IMO. Higher ups are constantly harping on cutting here, there, and everywhere and the investments failing to be made are in personnel. We all know how certain people are getting hired into these positions.

It's not what you know, it's who you know.

When you manufacture junk and the company is run by bean counters, this is what happens. Remington is probably the only company losing this kind of money, everyone else is making money hand over fist.

I almost bought a DPMS Panther sportical before I ended up with the S&W Sport. I'm really glad I passed on the DPMS, they are owned by Freedom Group.

DPMS: Desperate People Manufacturing <deleted>.....lmao.

Remington's decline has been a long time coming. All of their core products - the 700, 870, and 1100 - are over 50 years old. They have been trying to keep sales up with $50 rebate offers and by buying up other companies.