Why 20rd Rifle Ammo, 50 Rd pistol/rimfire standard?

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Some of you guys are way to OCD lol. Its not like once you open a box you have to shoot it all or it will go bad or something. Now what bothers me more is rimfire bulk packages that are partially used and not knowing how many rounds are left in it. :p Do you pour them all out and count them? :neener:
speaking of rimfire......what really bothers me is that .22 is sold in boxes of 50....but matches are shot 40 shots at a time.....so i end up with all of these boxes with only 10 rounds in them :cuss:
 
Gspn already posted my thoughts! Who cares...the bigger question is "Why are 10 hot dogs in a pack, but buns only come 8 to a pack?" LOL!

I think that finding the real answer might be a lost cause, but here's my assumptions concerning ammo packaging....
If (heavy on the if) they performed market research like they do today, they may have found that most consumers generally bought rifle ammo in batches of no more than 20 at a time, and pistol/smaller cartridges of no more than 50.. Maybe the numbers were lower, and they rounded up to force the consumer to buy a couple more to ease their sales accounting.. That's if retail was in charge...
I also like the theories based on military standards, but I tend to believe they'll go with packaging based on accounting reasons as well.
That being said, I have a brand new case of federal 5.56 that I bought a few years ago. They're loose packed in one big bag inside one cardboard box from the plant.. I think the packaging is somewhat arbitrary, but based on "end user consumption" more than "weapon capacity".

Just my initial thoughts.. However, I've never seen any statements on the subject from an ammo manufacturer, and I could certainly be wrong.
 
Just curious, does anyone know why rifle ammo is packaged in 20rd boxes and pistol/rimfire ammo in 50 Rd boxes? Who started this standard?

It seems that our military weapons designers may have thought of this when designing the magazine capacity for the M14 and early M16 mags.

Things were great until the advent of the 30 rd mag. Now you have to buy 3 boxes to fill 2 mags without having loose rounds. Of course now major pistol ammo manufacturers have come out with the 25rd box of premium ammo. That's great for my Glock 43, not so great for a Glock 17.
The 20 round box of ammunition predates 20 magazines by a long bit.

In the War Between the States era, ammunition was usually packaged in packs of ten with 12 caps. Military pistol ammo came in 6 round packs with 8 caps.

The military generally packs ammunition in integrals of magazine capacity, 20 round boxes for .30-40 Krag (100 round belt in loops), the five round stripper clip for the 5 round M1903 magazine, the 8 round clip for the 8 round M1, 20 round loose boxes for MG belts (before pre-packaged belts), and later M1918. In WW1, .45 came in either 24 round boxes (in 8 half moon clips) or 20 round boxes (because 21 didn't package well). The only time they didn't do this was after the adoption of the 30 round M16 magazine, they still used the 7 pocket bandoleer with 20 rounds per pocket. Mismatches are more the anomaly than the rule.

The 50 pistol and 20 rifle were more likely packaged due to what conveniently fits in a hunting jacket pocket and weight.

The 20 round magazine was more likely and out-growth of using a complete box.
 
They don't allow you sighting shots in small bore matches any more? That's what I used my "extra" shells for.
they do, i have a separate box for sighters....

i crack open 2 boxes for a string....one for sighters and one for match shots. that way if i need 15 or so sighters, i can take them and not have to futs around with opening another box to complete my match shots.
 
javjacob asked: "Now what bothers me more is rimfire bulk packages that are partially used and not knowing how many rounds are left in it. Do you pour them all out and count them?"

I keep my empty plastic rimfire cartridge boxes of 50 and 100 round and repack the ammo from the rimfire bulk packages for my convenience. The original labels usually peel off, and lighter fluid removes any label adhesive left behind. I sometimes label .22 LR as 5.6×15mmR Patronen.
 
"Now what bothers me more is rimfire bulk packages that are partially used and not knowing how many rounds are left in it. Do you pour them all out and count them?"
I don't account for boxes that are only partially full. I have one large storage bin for all the partially full boxes.

All the other ammo is accounted for in a spreadsheet which notes the specific storage bin it occupies and the location of that bin.
 
javjacob asked: "Now what bothers me more is rimfire bulk packages that are partially used and not knowing how many rounds are left in it. Do you pour them all out and count them?"

I keep my empty plastic rimfire cartridge boxes of 50 and 100 round and repack the ammo from the rimfire bulk packages for my convenience. The original labels usually peel off, and lighter fluid removes any label adhesive left behind. I sometimes label .22 LR as 5.6×15mmR Patronen.
Weight them.....

(then divide by the average weight of on round.)
 
Until so called premium handgun ammo came out, it was all packaged in 50 count boxes for the most part. My suspicion is cost is the reason and you tend to buy more as a consumer. Also, handgun shooters tend to shoot more than rifle shooters overall. I know.... 223 and so forth....

Why do we have bulk packs in 22 rimfire ammunition?
 
Carl N. Brown

I keep my empty plastic rimfire cartridge boxes of 50 and 100 round and repack the ammo from the rimfire bulk packages for my convenience.

Brilliant. I am going to start doing this.

Thank you, Mr. Brown.


:)
 
Why is it that most pistol rounds are sold in boxes of 50 with the exception of defensive rounds? Most hollow point rounds are sold in boxes of 20.
 
I've always assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that it was a matter of cost per box and 1,000 rounds per case. 20 and 50 both get you there, as do the 500 round rimfire boxes and some defensive rounds packaged 25 per box.

What threw a wrench in my theory is the 90 round boxes of 5.56X45mm. They give you a full can of 840 rounds, but one full magazine left over.
 
In the Cap and Ball revolver era ammunition was packaged 6 rounds to the package.

44Colt61ArmyJohnston&Dow11247.jpg
+1.

We can assume this was because Colt's and other cap n' balls had six chambers, so logically, one package would allow the user to place a cartridge in each chamber and not have any left over.
 
20 round rifle size boxes came about from the era when the soldiers cartridge box held forty rounds of ammunition.

I'm guessing the 50 round pistol ammunition came from the seven shot Spencer Carbines and Rifles.
Seven loadings would be packed up for 49 total and somebody just decided it was more convenient to pack them up in 50 round boxes.
Pistol and pistol caliber carbine/rifle ammunition was about the same size as the Spencer rounds and was packed up in the same manner.
 
20 round rifle size boxes came about from the era when the soldiers cartridge box held forty rounds of ammunition.

I'm guessing the 50 round pistol ammunition came from the seven shot Spencer Carbines and Rifles.
Seven loadings would be packed up for 49 total and somebody just decided it was more convenient to pack them up in 50 round boxes.
Pistol and pistol caliber carbine/rifle ammunition was about the same size as the Spencer rounds and was packed up in the same manner.

That's a reasonable assertion. I have my doubts about the Spencer and 50 rounds. I don't think they were ever that popular.

My personal opinion about the 500 ct bulk packs (loose ammo) of 22 rimfire is purely a cost consideration (packaging) and meant to increase the factory's sales volume back when that mattered.
 
Buy IMI 5.56x45 and use 30 round magazines. Then your boxes perfectly fill one magazine each.
 
rimfire,

The Spencer Carbine was the most purchased by the federal government carbine of the War Between the States.

While I doubt the 50 rounds came about because of the Spencer, six reloading tubes in your Blakeshe Quick loader, a full magazine in your Carbine and one round in the Chamber and you got 50 rounds with none left over.

-kBob
 
From what I read, the Spencer was not provided to troops during the civil war and folks bought their own if they wanted one.
 
From what I read, the Spencer was not provided to troops during the civil war and folks bought their own if they wanted one.
The reason being is that the powers that be in Washington didn't want the troops shooting lots of expensive ammo and wasting it. That's also why during the Indian wars the troops had trap door rifles instead of repeaters.
 
Well actually General Ripley dispite all his grumbling placed the first order for 10,000 Spencer Rifles with bayonets on 26 December of 1861. They US Navy placed an order for 700 in July of that same year.

First combat use recorded was a private gift from Spencer to a member of the 1st Mass Cav on Oct16, 1862.

The Lincoln story is true to an extent although the Army had already placed an order for 11,000 Spencer Carbines about six weeks before the event on 13 July 1863.

About 7,000 were delivered that year.

With new orders and such about 28, 000 were delivered in 1864.

By the time the contracts finally ran out well after the war (well six months)in October of 1865 a total of 64,685 of the carbines had been delivered by Spencer AND an additional 30,496 from Burnside Arms .

95,000+ is more than a few carbines. Plus Rifles ( about 11,700)

By the end of the war 15 Cav regiments were fully armed with Spencers.

For a comparison, including sales of war contracts through the end of 1865

Sharps sold only 77,330 carbines and only 8,120 rifles

Burside sold only 53,031 of their own carbines in that time.

The Smith only 31,002.

and everyone else fewer.

The Spencer Carbine was the standard for the US cav from 1866 to 1873.

Oddly when the 1873 Trap door replaced the Spencer officially many units received Sharps carbine adapted to the .50/70 cartridge it self obsolete by 1873. Our government in action. The only thing that would have ticked me off as a young trooper in 1873 more than turning in my Spencer for a brand new 1873 .45/70 would have been turning it in for a Bubba-ed .50-70 Sharps!

G.A. Custer was not happy with their replacement as his ACW units beginning in mid 1863 were armed with them as was his 7th US Cav in the west until 1873 (some say 7th had them later than that but had turned them all in before 1876)

Most everything here I swiped from John D. Aulay's "Carbines of the Civil War."
My first experience with playing with a Spencer Carbine was in the early 1960's as a kid. Another kid's family had one great Grandpappy took of a Yankee in The War. I have been interested in them every since.

-kBob
 
rimfire,

The Spencer Carbine was the most purchased by the federal government carbine of the War Between the States.

While I doubt the 50 rounds came about because of the Spencer, six reloading tubes in your Blakeshe Quick loader, a full magazine in your Carbine and one round in the Chamber and you got 50 rounds with none left over.

-kBob
The problem with that is even with the magazine cut-off, which came out much later, you can't load 7 + 1 without a lot of messing about. Load one round in the magazine, cycle the action, then load all the tubes.
 
point the muzzle down.....which is the direction it has to be pointed anyway, drop the loose round in, in cycle the action, pour the Blakeshe tube in. Man that was complex!

The magazine is not like a magazine in a semi auto pistol that holds the ammo. It is like the inner magazine tube in your typical .22 tube feed rifle. The rounds are loose in that tube until you force that spring loaded inner tube in. The Blakeshee quick loaders are just tubes closed at one end and the ammo box lid prevents the round from spilling out while being carried.

I got rather excited by my first handling as a kid of the Nylon 66 as it loads just like a spencer. Because of the Blakeshee, the buddy's Nylon 66 got fed from sections of a fallen TV antenna almost immediately after I saw it. ( and yes we were so excited that we loaded the rounds backward the first time) I still use aluminum arrow shafts sometimes on tube fed .22s as quick loaders.

I understand that in the 1960's and 70's when breech blocks were available that some folks bought a spare breech block to make it center fire (all original Spencers were rim-fire) and made ammo from .50/70 or other .50 basic. I always wondered why no one made turned cases that would take .22 rim-fire primed cases, blanks or nail drivers as a primer for single shot use.

I usually complain about drift so......

BAD -KBOB! BAD BOY! NO SCOOBIE SNACKS FOR YOU!

There I am chastised.

-kBob
 
point the muzzle down.....which is the direction it has to be pointed anyway, drop the loose round in, in cycle the action, pour the Blakeshe tube in. Man that was complex!

The magazine is not like a magazine in a semi auto pistol that holds the ammo. It is like the inner magazine tube in your typical .22 tube feed rifle. The rounds are loose in that tube until you force that spring loaded inner tube in. The Blakeshee quick loaders are just tubes closed at one end and the ammo box lid prevents the round from spilling out while being carried.

I got rather excited by my first handling as a kid of the Nylon 66 as it loads just like a spencer. Because of the Blakeshee, the buddy's Nylon 66 got fed from sections of a fallen TV antenna almost immediately after I saw it. ( and yes we were so excited that we loaded the rounds backward the first time) I still use aluminum arrow shafts sometimes on tube fed .22s as quick loaders.

I understand that in the 1960's and 70's when breech blocks were available that some folks bought a spare breech block to make it center fire (all original Spencers were rim-fire) and made ammo from .50/70 or other .50 basic. I always wondered why no one made turned cases that would take .22 rim-fire primed cases, blanks or nail drivers as a primer for single shot use.

I usually complain about drift so......

BAD -KBOB! BAD BOY! NO SCOOBIE SNACKS FOR YOU!

There I am chastised.

-kBob
Ask and ye shall receive,,,
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/produc...cts_id=8153&osCsid=0dc4ov10dejvohk4k83duf53h0
 
Just to sort of bring us back on topic......anyone remember the Peter's chicklet packs of .22 ammo? A flat little box with a cellophane window.

Our JROTC unit in highschool received .22LR ammo (generally old yellow box Super X or white box match) packed in 500 bricks inside a ".50 cal" ammo cans, the can 5.56 comes in rather than the thin can 7.62 Nato belted comes in.

As a three position 50 foot shooter I always tried to by atleast a 500 round brick of ten 50 round boxes of .22LR in my younger days to insure it all shot to the same place.

-kBob
 
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