G3 at the Range

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The magazine is without doubt the most robust magazine design of the big 3. The magazine box surrounding the feed lips is easily capable of withstanding impact due to dropping without distorting the feed lips. Can't say that about the M14 or FAL mags.

Just a nit to pick, but

1) M1A and FAL mags are steel; most CETME/G3 are aluminum.

2) FAL mags don't have feed lips, per se. The feed lips are incorporated into the receiver.

have you seen the period accessories for the FAL for mounting optics? Scarcely better than those cheesy Chinese top cover mounts for AKs back in the 80s.

Since it's 2015 and we have pic rail top covers like the offering from DSA for both standard and para models, I see no reason to concern ourselves with "period accessories". Contemporary options for optics mounting on FALs are fantastic, and superior to CETME/G3 options.

G3 has a free floating barrel as a standard design element

Except for the charging handle tube being rigidly attached to the FSB......
 
Except for the charging handle tube being rigidly attached to the FSB......

Umm, no. Take a closer look, the cocking tube isn't connected to the triple frame at all, and as far as being rigid, you can move it by hand.

The triple frame or FSB is of course attached to the barrel, perhaps that makes it non free floated?

1) M1A and FAL mags are steel; most CETME/G3 are aluminum.

And not to nitpick your nitpick, I can't speak to which of the big 3 has tougher mags, but there are plenty of steel G3 mags to go around.
 
Since it's 2015 and we have pic rail top covers like the offering from DSA for both standard and para models, I see no reason to concern ourselves with "period accessories". Contemporary options for optics mounting on FALs are fantastic, and superior to CETME/G3 options.

I love nit picking, and it's all in fun.

If we're going to go that route (and I agree that it's 2016 so why limit ourselves to '50's stuff) There are several CETME/G3 type rifles available with welded on Pic rails. I have one. An integral rail is superior to all the FAL top cover choices.
 
Umm, no. Take a closer look, the cocking tube isn't connected to the triple frame at all, and as far as being rigid, you can move it by hand.

The FSB is pinned to the barrel, and the cocking tube is held in place by it. Whether or not the tube is able to wiggle a little doesn't change that it's not a free floated barrel any more than a Kalashnikov, FAL, M1A. And like those, the G3's hand guards are in direct contact with the barrel via the mounting system.

The design would make the G3 more easily free floated than most gas operated guns, but they certainly aren't as-produced.

And not to nitpick your nitpick, I can't speak to which of the big 3 has tougher mags, but there are plenty of steel G3 mags to go around.

Only steel ones I've encountered are cheap Asian knock-offs. All the legitimate G3 mags I have are aluminum. Not that they aren't OK, I just don't consider them any more robust than the FAL, M1A or .308 AR pattern.
 
The FSB is pinned to the barrel, and the cocking tube is held in place by it.
The FSB is pinned to the barrel, however, the cocking tube doesn't touch the FSB. The front of the cocking tube is swaged down so that it doesn't touch the FSB.

And like those, the G3's hand guards are in direct contact with the barrel via the mounting system.
The hand guard is pinned to the cocking tube, which doesn't touch the barrel.

All the legitimate G3 mags I have are aluminum.
I've got both aluminum Rhinemetal and HK mags and surplus German (don't remember the make) steel mags. They all work fine, the aluminum mags are just lighter.

RTG has German G3 mags for sale: http://www.robertrtg.com/store/pc/STEEL-HK91-G3-20RD-MAGAZINE-24p2127.htm
German G3 20rd steel magazine for your HK91, G3, PTR91 or HK .308 clone. Steel mags are German military production. Conditions range from good to new.

BSW
 
And not to nitpick your nitpick, I can't speak to which of the big 3 has tougher mags, but there are plenty of steel G3 mags to go around.

Yeah I can verify that, I've got a couple dozen steel H&K factory stamped 20 round mags.
 
The FSB is pinned to the barrel, and the cocking tube is held in place by it. Whether or not the tube is able to wiggle a little doesn't change that it's not a free floated barrel any more than a Kalashnikov, FAL, M1A. And like those, the G3's hand guards are in direct contact with the barrel via the mounting system.

The design would make the G3 more easily free floated than most gas operated guns, but they certainly aren't as-produced.

Do you have one sitting in front of you right now? Because I'm looking at one and its not what you're describing. Maybe your CETME is built different (?) but on an Hk and PTR the cocking tubes only contact is between where its welded on the receiver and where the handguard attaches.

Its worth noting the Hk MSG90 does away with the triple frame/FSB and the front sight is attached to the cocking tube unlike the G3, providing for a truly free floated barrel.
 
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Do you have one sitting in front of you right now? Because I'm looking at one and its not what you're describing. Maybe your CETME is built different (?) but on an Hk and PTR the cocking tubes only contact is between where its welded on the receiver and where the handguard attaches.

At time of writing that post, yes, a CETME.
 
Was she talking about you or the rifle?

I don't have that problem, especially when I'm shooting the M1A/M14. Women seem it be attracted to it's innate power, flowing lines and masculine beauty.
Most people don't call a person "that", I'm pretty sure she was talking about the gun, or more specifically the racket it was making.

I have learned a lot from this thread. The banter is actually informative. :D
 
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No steel mags for the G3........Yeah right. Just like there aren't apples on the apple tree I suppose.
 
"The FSB is pinned to the barrel, however, the cocking tube doesn't touch the FSB. The front of the cocking tube is swaged down so that it doesn't touch the FSB."

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If there's a gap there, it's in the thousandths.

And yet the tube is flexible enough to wiggle...into the sides of the triple tree. It's not a free float, and from what I've seen the tube/tree diameters are pretty close (so the tube is well supported against bending). Though, it does remain to be seen why the design hasn't been updated to do a true free float by default, any more; I recall on certain models (PSG and MP5SD?) the tree is absent, and a tube handguard is fitted around the barrel (and attaches to the cocking tube and trunnion area?). My 45acp MP5/UMP 'thing' has a handgard attached in roughly this manner, and the result is pretty similar to any AR forearm tube.

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"I'm pretty sure she was talking about the gun, or more specifically the racket it was making."
...or the cases it was bouncing off the side of her head. Not uncommon, the very few times you see 308 G3/CETMEs on the range, for the shooters to be oblivious about where there brass is going, way, way, way down at the opposite end of the pistol bays :D

TCB
 
That pic doesn't look like a normal G3 or HK91. The hand guard hanger should be welded with a fitting to the cocking tube, not (apparently) just stuffed between the barrel and cocking tube.

BSW
 
No steel mags for the G3........Yeah right. Just like there aren't apples on the apple tree I suppose.

Let's work on that reading comprehension so that we aren't making straw men.

most CETME/G3 are aluminum.

Only steel ones I've encountered are cheap Asian knock-offs.

It's pretty rare for me to make absolute statements. I don't back myself into corners, so unless I am 100% certain of something, there will be qualifiers such as "that I've seen", "that I'm aware of", "unless you're privy to info I'm not", etc.

If we're going to go that route (and I agree that it's 2016 so why limit ourselves to '50's stuff) There are several CETME/G3 type rifles available with welded on Pic rails. I have one. An integral rail is superior to all the FAL top cover choices.

What does that do for optic mounting height? That's my complaint with the claw type, like my B-Square mount-you cannot get a decent cheek weld unless you modify the stock.

The FAL pic rail covers place the optic much lower, and the irons are also lower profile.

I don't hate the CETME/G3. It was, in fact, my first .308 at 19 years old. But having subsequently purchased an AR-10 and then an FAL para, I find the G3 seriously lacking in many ways. Abusive recoil as compared to it's contemporaries, so-so ergonomics, and even if you manage to find the brass on your neighbor's property, the chamber fluting renders much of it unusable. I ripped a lot of rims off in the sizing die before I just started chucking brass that came out of that rifle into the scrap bucket.
 
That pic doesn't look like a normal G3 or HK91. The hand guard hanger should be welded with a fitting to the cocking tube, not (apparently) just stuffed between the barrel and cocking tube.

+1

And thats the older style cocking tube as well, you don't see too many of those around. The later and much more common style is significantly smaller in diameter at the triple frame, and there is several thousandths space between the cocking tube and triple frame.
 
The later and much more common style is significantly smaller in diameter at the triple frame, and there is several thousandths space between the cocking tube and triple frame.

Barrels whip more than several thousandths when firing. I'll bet a slow motion close up of the triple frame and tube would demonstrate quite a bit of contact under firing.



 
Barrels whip more than several thousandths when firing. I'll bet a slow motion close up of the triple frame and tube would demonstrate quite a bit of contact under firing.

That would be interesting, I'd like to know. At least we've moved on from thinking the tube is welded to the triple frame.
 
Shoot what you like boys. None of the "Big 3" is perfect. Find the one which works for you and by all means, be happy.

Life is too short to worry about what the other fella is shooting. Smile and carry on.
 
Shoot what you like boys. None of the "Big 3" is perfect. Find the one which works for you and by all means, be happy.

Life is too short to worry about what the other fella is shooting. Smile and carry on.

Yea, I like all of them! That's why they make different firearms. So I can own lots of them in my lifetime :0)
 
There was an incredulous comment about a G3 bolt rusting shut over night. There are some places in the world that have an incredible corrosive environment compared to Colorado. I talked to Bud's who had tours in Vietnam. Some of the hot/wet places in Vietnam just ate the early M16's. Bud said that leaving a round in the chamber overnight, while on patrol, meant you could not extract the round in the morning, and if you tried to shoot it out, the rim would pull off. One bud of mine used to live on Kwajalein, a small island out in the Pacific. It is near the equator, humidity is always 80% or higher, temperatures at night are 85 F or so, daytime worse. The sun is so intense that Caucasians will blister after an afternoon exposure, if they forgot to put on their sunscreen! This bud told me of parking a bicycle at the airport (only security have internal combustion vehicles, high ranking Military get Golf carts, everyone else, walks or bicycle). He left on a trip and returned one week later. The bicycle was so rusted that he tossed it out. It was unusable.

The Swiss grease their bolt rollers. You can look at SwissRifles.com, Guisan provided lots of excellent advice on the Swiss roller bolts. The Swiss cleaning kit had two grease containers. I purchased several of these and I believe the black grease in these containers is a molybdenum disulfide grease. The bolt rollers are heavily coated with this grease. Considering the high contact pressure between the rollers, the bolt head, and the trunnion, I am of the opinion that grease or LSA is the appropriate lubricant for these rifles.
 
1114151304_HDR.jpg

My PTR is in the center of this shot. It holds right around 1.5MOA with handloads. Brass is reloadable, thanks to the ejection port buffer. Ejection is still vigorous; i had a picture somewhere of a case stuck, mouth first, into a sideboard on my friend's trailer that we were using as a shooting platform one day.

My barrel is free floated. It has about 1/16" of flex in any direction before it touches the sight frame to the cocking tube.

My gun chokes on tar sealed ammo. I dont like it, but given that i keep hearing mixed reports of recent CQ at PTR, and that it runs beautifully apart from that, and given my personal investment in it to this point, i dont think its worth the risk of trying to find one less picky about it's ammo.
 
"The Swiss grease their bolt rollers. You can look at SwissRifles.com, Guisan** provided lots of excellent advice on the Swiss roller bolts. The Swiss cleaning kit had two grease containers. I purchased several of these and I believe the black grease in these containers is a molybdenum disulfide grease. The bolt rollers are heavily coated with this grease. Considering the high contact pressure between the rollers, the bolt head, and the trunnion, I am of the opinion that grease or LSA is the appropriate lubricant for these rifles."
"Automattenfett" ('grease for automatic') is the key word. Sadly, we can't seem to import it for some dumb reason; it's considered an article of war or some such :rolleyes:. It is a moly-sulfide, but the exact mixture & optimization isn't really known, and since wrong-lube issues have proven disastrous in STGW57/PE57 rifles before (the recesses cake up and the rollers lose engagement if oiled), any experimentation should be done with a keen eye.

A big chunk of why the G3/etc are so reliable against debris is that hellacious spring that pops the rollers out when in battery. I theorize it was added late in the game during design when the shift to 308 (vs 280 Brit or something similar) was made, to 'cheat' the action the last little bit needed for safe function without having to radically redefine the geometry of the action. But the effect is a bolt that rams itself into battery way harder than any recoil spring or bolt momentum could accomplish, which means that a stoppage slightly out of battery is basically impossible (I suspect it is strong enough to size out of spec brass, or embed debris into case walls as it cycles closed). Sadly, it also makes some aspects of service obnoxious to impossible, but luckily no one thinks they ever need to take their bolt apart for maintenance, so...

"That pic doesn't look like a normal G3 or HK91. The hand guard hanger should be welded with a fitting to the cocking tube, not (apparently) just stuffed between the barrel and cocking tube."
Not an expert on HK's goofy cocking tube design, here (the Swiss design was way simpler & moots the entire need for the thing*) but this was the only good picture of the area I could find. Probably a home-build or something if it is a non-standard configuration, so perhaps a upload of someone's HK triple tree area is in order?

"My gun chokes on tar sealed ammo."
Yeah, the Swiss used wax on their 7.5 during the STGW years for this reason. There's just no way around those precious flutes delivering various bore fouling back into the chamber area.

TCB

*instead of spring loaded rollers, the locking wedge simply pushes the rollers out when the bolt reaches its forward stopping point at the chamber. This means there is no camming needed to cock the gun, just pull back on the locking wedge with a handle. The anti-bounce scheme (part of the function of the HK garage-door spring) is also very clever; the brass is made with a single neck, but the chamber has an extra step in its neck. The corner of the brass's shoulder actually gets swaged down about .05" when chambered, cushioning the action against bounce (and greatly contributing to full auto control, I'm told). Makes the brass weird for reloading --you'd want to fire form it back out to the original state in a bolt action next-- but being as it's Berdan it is no huge loss.
**RIP; I'm pretty sure no one on Earth knew more about Swiss guns than that man
 
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The problem with the HK design is you need decent steel to manufacture the bolt head, rollers, and locking peice. If you use crap steel those parts will be beaten into unusable shape before the first basic load goes through the gun.

Automating the manufacture of those critical pieces is certainly possible, but it's not ever going to be easy or cheap. My understanding is that to get the parts to be in spec the steel is roughly machined, heat treated, and then ground to the final shape and tolerance.

I agree. At some point in a firearm you have to have material that can take the load and have a decent fatigue life. The cheapest steels would be plain carbon steels, but they have their own problems and don't have the yield that alloy steels have. You look at firearm design post WW2 and you see material choice being taken into account, and manufacturing. Those beautiful rifles from the WW1 period, all forged and machined parts. The M1903, even stupid parts such as sling swivels, made from forgings, which then had to be machined. The M1 Garand was made of high quality materials through out, and would be a very expensive rifle to make today. The receiver and bolt were highly machined nickel steel, then changed over to 8620, which is a good light duty alloy steel. I will bet the HK91 has fewer alloy steel parts than a Garand. And I don't doubt that was a deliberate choice, to minimize cost and fabrication time.

I understand each F35 fighter jet will cost $250 million. I can't imagine the rare materials and expensive production processes to make that thing!



A big chunk of why the G3/etc are so reliable against debris is that hellacious spring that pops the rollers out when in battery. I theorize it was added late in the game during design when the shift to 308 (vs 280 Brit or something similar) was made, to 'cheat' the action the last little bit needed for safe function without having to radically redefine the geometry of the action. But the effect is a bolt that rams itself into battery way harder than any recoil spring or bolt momentum could accomplish, which means that a stoppage slightly out of battery is basically impossible (I suspect it is strong enough to size out of spec brass, or embed debris into case walls as it cycles closed). Sadly, it also makes some aspects of service obnoxious to impossible, but luckily no one thinks they ever need to take their bolt apart for maintenance, so...

I read course notes by a Springfield Armory designer and SA had an interesting quality metric: the mass of the carrier divided by the mass of the bolt. The higher this ratio, that is the more carrier mass there is to bolt mass, the more reliable in feed will be the action. Carrier and bolt mechanisms that have a lot of mass, thus inertia, will strip that round and feed it into the chamber. A heavy carrier will smash that bolt into battery overcoming a lot of breech friction. The HK91 rifle has a hellishly heavy bolt carrier. You can feel the carrier and bolt cycling as you shoot. I believe this is another reason why these rifles are a superior mechanism.

All things being said, I think the roller bolts are very ingenious and well designed.

Yeah, the Swiss used wax on their 7.5 during the STGW years for this reason.

Don't tell the US Ordnance Department that. They probably would not believe it and would discount it. The US Ordnance Department wants a high case to chamber friction, the type of friction that causes malfunctions because the case won't extract. They believe that bolt thrust is bad, and a wax lubricant would increase bolt thrust, and get that case out of the chamber! They want broken bolt lugs and ripped case rims. The type of malfunction that gets Soldier's killed in combat. But, for the civilians in the Ordnance Department, "Task passed is task completed".
 
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so perhaps a upload of someone's HK triple tree area is in order?

IMG_0006_zpsxu9zhndf.jpg
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This is what most Hk91 and clones look like. You can see the finish on the barrel worn right where the cocking tube hanger comes in contact during barrel whip. Congrats MachIV your much belaboured point that the design isn't truly free floated is proven here.

IMG_0007_zpsxvvdbljc.jpg
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And here's a couple of pictures showing the clearance the cocking tube has in the triple frame.

IMG_0010_zpswvs97row.jpg
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The rifle pictured is a PTR GI, and as should be clearly visible, the cocking tube is not attached in any way to the triple frame or by extension the barrel.
 
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