Range Report: The all new Ruger LCR Ricochet!!

old lady new shooter said:

Not on the topic you are posting about but looking at the photos of the gun I'm wondering how you can hold on to it, the grip is so small?! Is there a special technique for these?

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They're actually quite comfy (for me, anyway, medium size paws). No special technique required.

You might consider handloading. If you want a good crimp, you'll need a crimping cannelure in your bullet. Not all bullets come with them, but you can put one on with a Corbins tool. http://www.corbins.com/hct-1.htm

A hard crimp without a cannelure or crimping groove can be counter-productive, bulging the brass below the crimp and actually reducing bullet pull.

Here is a review of the same exact performance with the exact same revolver from someone different.
http://www.dayattherange.com/?p=4510

Everyone else though has given great feedback on jumping crimp. Here is what I have noticed in my 20 years of shooting big bore revolvers. I am not saying it is you or your problem neither is this scientific it is just my experience. I reload for 454, 460S&W and 500S&W. What I have noticed/tested is that if I stiffen up my wrist and elbows which can hurt like He-_ with these revolvers . On the last round I notice a little crimp jump kind of like fighting the recoil. But on these big bore revolvers if I per-say ride the recoil there is no crimp jump. So it is not just the 9mm round nor is it all the Ops fault.

interesting for sure! i have been looking into 9mm revolvers, but wanting a model with a hammer + 3" barrel + adj sights. looking at the 3" barreled LCRX in a 38 as well, it seems a little light but good to carry + the trigger is great as i checked at a retailer. i guess my interest in a 9mm revolver just took a hit from this reading, better learning before a purchase than after!!!

i guess my interest in a 9mm revolver just took a hit from this reading, better learning before a purchase than after!!!

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You have a good point there.

While I would be the last man to deny that "because I want one" is a good enough reason to buy a gun, if we are going to approach a gun buy rationally instead of emotionally, then we need to ask why we want a revolver chambered for a cartridge that was never designed for a revolver?

Conversely, if we choose based on the cartridge, why choose a gun that wasn't designed for that cartridge?

mesinge2 said:

Also, the gun is not all that lightweight at 17oz, an all steel S&W model 36 weighs 19.5 oz. The gun's weight shouldn't be an issue here.

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The lighter the gun, the freeer it is to move backwards under recoil. Thus, the inertia of the any unfired bullets remaining in the chambers will have a stronger tendency to jump crimp.

Also, it may be more appropriate to think, not of the bullet pulling out of the case, but rather, the CASE being pulled away from the BULLET. But however you think of it, the problem remains. Of course, you could make the gun heavier by tying a brick to it. That would help with the original problem, but introduces a major carryability issue.:banghead:

You've been around long enough and shot enough rounds for me to wonder why you don't reload. When I bought my first gun, I bought my reloading setup the same week. It just made sense to me.

I highly recommend it.

Lost Sheep

The first thing I would do is to get some of that Ruger ammo where bullet looks like a drill bit. If the bullets come out of cases that is when I would complain to Ruger. Surely Ruger ammo should cause no problems in Ruger firearm.

The crimp has practically nothing to do with bullets pulling or setting back. Case neck tension is what holds the bullet in place. If the bullet is undersized or if the case neck has been over expanded or not sized down enough the bullet will not be held in place during firing. More crimp will only make the problem worse. With proper case neck tension the bullet is held very tightly even with no crimp applied. If the case is cannelured below the base of the bullet (not in a crimp groove on the bullet) it will stop the bullet from setting back into the case when feeding in a semi auto - but will do nothing to prevent bullets pulling out of the case from inertia in a revolver. You cannot hold a bullet in place by holding it only on the mouth of the case. There simply isn't enough material at the mouth to do the job. The ammo maker is the problem here. Think of it like this - if you hold a baseball bat as tightly as you can using only your thumb and first finger with only one hand I can still jerk it out of your grip easily. If you wrap both hands around that same bat and squeeze tightly I will not be able to break it from your grip. Proper case neck tension is like using both hands. Factory ammo is made to very loose specs today and quality control is a joke. They only have to sell it. They couldn't care less how well it works in your gun. If you want quality ammunition today you MUST load it yourself. Ruger is not to blame for this. The ammo manufacturer is.

It's just the nature of a 9mm revolver. It's just not a good match. Might have to reload your own in order to have inexpensive practice ammo that works.

Plus the hassle of 9mm moon clips on top of it all.

I'll take the LCR in 38 Special all day long.

But what I am asking is why can't a similar thing be done, where the cannelure presses the case into the bearing surface of the bullet, like this:

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It can. In fact, some of the hardest recoiling cartridges, the old Nitro Express double rifle cartridges had a stab crimp -- essentially a punch struck the outside of the case after the bullet was seated, making dents that held the bullet in place.

This approach is similar -- making the cannelure on the case after the bullet is seated. The only question I would have is will this cause the case mouth to rise slightly -- as if it were flared -- and interfere with feeding?

I would tend to think that the amount of force used to apply a cannelure around the bullet would have to be very carefully controlled to keep from upsetting the case's and the bullet's dimensions. But it might work. My experience from handloading for a long time for moonclipped rounds in revolvers and semi autos has been that with sufficient case neck tension any crimp is almost unnecessary. I have never had bullets pull or setback after I adjusted my expander die button to not over expand cases. If your expander button is 3 or 4 thous. under your bullet dia. the bullets cannot move. I have dummy rounds made back in the 90s and used to test a large number of 1911s that have never set back into the cases and they are very lightly taper crimped and have no cannelure. Get enough neck tension and pulling and setback problems cease to be an issue. Unfortunately the ammo factories don't bother to hold their tolerances like they should be doing.

The ammo maker is the problem here.

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No they're not.

When Georg Luger designed the cartridge, it was designed in conjunction with the Parabellum-Pistole. The cartridges sitting in a magazine residing in the grip of a semi-automatic never experience the force that they do while being gripped by the extractor groove by moonclips in a revolver.

The cartridges were never designed to be fired from a revolver. If Ruger is to be blamed at all, it is for designing a firearm around a cartridge that was never meant to be fired in it.

This is beating a dead horse.

The bullets and cases worked fine and continue to work fine in hundreds of thousands of P08, P38, Browning Hi-Powers, Beretta M9, Glocks, HK MP5 and UZI submachine guns not to mention the thousands of other 9mm firearms in existence, the Ruger revolvers are yanking the cases off the bullets and somehow its inadequate crimping by the bullet manufacturer?

The cartridges function to specification in the firearms that they were designed to be fired in.

I have an old Speed Six in 9mm, no problems even with cheap ammo. It's a LOT heavier than a LCR, so I'm inclined to think the weight of the gun helps. Recoil is pretty much non-existant with any loads, much less than a typical auto. Some folks claim that the 9mm recoils more than a 38spl with the same bullet weight. Supposedly the higher pressure of the 9mm gives more "jet effect" and increases recoil.

I also have a M625, no problems with any jacketed ammo. HOWEVER reloads with cast bullets are a problem. I "believe" that is due to lube being smeared over the bearing surface thus seriously reducing case tension.

JohnKSa said:

The 124gr 9mm runs about 200fps higher muzzle velocity than a 125gr .38Spl. That works out to about a 20% increase in recoil velocity assuming identical firearm weights.

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That's not a surprise, but I couldn't say personally. I only use 158 grs LSWC-HP in my J frame, so it's not a valid comparison.

There's a lot of interesting information in thread. Like:

too much crimp will deform the bullet. the easy solution would be to purchase 9mm bullets with a crimp groove or cannelure, but no one makes them.

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First off, 9mm has a taper crimp and I can't imagine what you'd have to do to a taper crimp to actually result in a deformed bullet. Proper case mouth annealing and crimp tension should solve most/all bullet retention needs. Second off (and if you want to experiment) there are plenty of manufacturers that offer "9mm bullets" with a crimp groove--they're called .38/.357 bullets. The real trick however is a) figuring out how to roll crimp a .38 cal bullet in a 9mm case and b) how to head space that cartridge for reliable functions (moonclips are not ideal here)

mesinge2 said:

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Those being from factory ammo, I assume they're FMJ (and not a thin plating over soft lead). As a reloader, the first thing that is apparent to me is one on the right was pretty badly overcrimped. Your earlier photos suggested that too, but they're too fuzzy to be sure. Overcrimping 9mm can actually reduce neck tension, so it's actually likely to do just the opposite of what you think (or think you want for the LCR). A proper taper crimp should not leave an indentation around the bullet...especially with FMJ.

ExMachina said:

There's a lot of interesting information in thread. Like:



First off, 9mm has a taper crimp and I can't imagine what you'd have to do to a taper crimp to actually result in a deformed bullet. Proper case mouth annealing and crimp tension should solve most/all bullet retention needs. Second off (and if you want to experiment) there are plenty of manufacturers that offer "9mm bullets" with a crimp groove--they're called .38/.357 bullets. The real trick however is a) figuring out how to roll crimp a .38 cal bullet in a 9mm case and b) how to head space that cartridge for reliable functions (moonclips are not ideal here)

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It is quite easy to taper crimp and deform a bullet. People do it all the time, see above.

I don't know anyone annealing 9mm brass.

As far as crimp for case tension, that's not the function of a taper crimp. Not at all.

ExMachina said:

There's a lot of interesting information in thread. Like:



First off, 9mm has a taper crimp and I can't imagine what you'd have to do to a taper crimp to actually result in a deformed bullet. Proper case mouth annealing and crimp tension should solve most/all bullet retention needs. Second off (and if you want to experiment) there are plenty of manufacturers that offer "9mm bullets" with a crimp groove--they're called .38/.357 bullets. The real trick however is a) figuring out how to roll crimp a .38 cal bullet in a 9mm case and b) how to head space that cartridge for reliable functions (moonclips are not ideal here)

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Because of the slightly larger diameter I had trouble using jacketed .38 bullets, however cast/swaged worked OK with a small powder charge reduction to allow for the extra diameter.

ljnowell said:

It is quite easy to taper crimp and deform a bullet. People do it all the time, see above.

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With a taper crimp?? Those pics above look more like an attempted roll crimp.

I don't know anyone annealing 9mm brass.

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All quality factory brass should be annealed. Some manufacturers do a better job than others (and probalby some fail to do it at all). Wasn't implying that a reloader do it himself...not to pistol ammo.

As far as crimp for case tension, that's not the function of a taper crimp. Not at all.

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For straight walled pistol cartridges they are interrelated and one can't get an effective taper crimp w/o having proper tension. Discussed here

ExMachina said:

With a taper crimp?? Those pics above look more like an attempted roll crimp.



All quality factory brass should be annealed. Some manufacturers do a better job than others (and probalby some fail to do it at all). Wasn't implying that a reloader do it himself...not to pistol ammo.



For straight walled pistol cartridges they are interrelated and one can't get an effective taper crimp w/o having proper tension. Discussed here

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Yes, with a taper crimp. It's discussed here and everywhere else all the time. It's very easy to deform a jacketed bullet with a taper crimp.

We aren't talking about factory brass we are talking about reloading brass that's been fired. No one is going to anneal 9mm brass. The annealing process at the factory is only for manufacturing purposes. It occurs midway through the draw process to keep the brass from cracking.

You are right that without proper tension you won't get a proper crimp, but taper crimp doesn't serve the purpose of holding a bullet in place.