Why aren't we better using facts to counter the Antis' arguments?

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PS: I do understand that no laws should be made giving priority to a religious concept or issue. In that sense they are somewhat the same.

The priority part would seem however to be more open to arguement since the 1st amendment itself gives priority to religion.

My interpretation, and my understanding of court interpretation, is that the 1st Amendments essentially means that no religion may be considered 'established' in the sense that the Church of England is a specific legal authority, and that, for the purposes of laws, there is no legal deference due to any specific religion. In general, the democratic process means that laws may reflect a a moral consensus, and that may be because of shared religious beliefs, but the laws themselves are to be kept separate from specific religious dogma.

The courts have repeatedly held that invoking a religious objection to a law is insufficient, and this makes sense since religions contradict each other. Where I grew up, Maryland, there used to be "blue laws" that forced businesses to close on Sundays. This was a law originally based on a Christian belief that Sunday was a holy day and business should be prohibited. However, the challenges to these laws by Jewish business owners (who take Saturday as Sabbath) were rejected by the Supreme Court based on explicitly secular arguments. It was only the state's secular interest in a day of rest that allowed the laws to stand (whether you agree with the decision or not).

In the other direction, the Supreme Court, in Edwards v. Aguillard, (1987, 7-2 decision) found that teaching creationism in classrooms in Louisiana advanced a specific religious dogma, in essence 'establishing' a state religion, for the purposes of science education. Even if there was a general consensus among the legislators (and possibly citizens) on the teaching of creationism, it was clearly only based on religion - there could be no secular defense of the statute.

You can look up the 'Lemon' test, which is what the court uses to determine if a law interferes with the 1st amendment (with regard to the establishment clause).



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"Seems like "make no law" is pretty clear , while I am confused over how that converts to ""there is no priority""
What's even clearer is "Congress shall" --the amendment clearly applies only at the federal level, which makes clear sense when you consider that most colonies were founded as religious cliques and preserved this heritage in their policy-making even up until independence times when they had naturally begun to mix & moderate. That amendment was meant to protect individual minorities in these areas as much as it was to keep the colonies from fighting over the federal pie with the dream they could force their preferred faith on the remainder (as England had done by way of their king). Not sure how or when exactly this was somehow 'incorporated' to the states in direct contravention of the language, but I have to assume the 14ths 'inferred equality mandate' (as fanciful a goal as 'to each according to their ability,' and for the same reasons) had something to do with it.

Even more clear, is that the very next amendment, in a series of very similarly-worded amendments, makes no mention of Congress or the courts whatsoever; it merely states our (the people) right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed by way of the constitutional document. And yet here we are, our very commerce, conveyance, and even ownership of these items is flatly prohibited in certain areas of this nation, ever hungry to expand their reach and influence. Courts almost entirely complicit in the subversion.

"The Little Sisters of the Poor case is pure malice and nihilism."
The kind of logic underpinning the case against them will end with we gun owners forced to find and pay for insurance who's liability cannot be calculated (due to statistical factors), and will therefore be set arbitrarily by hostile actors. Like all gun law, it will be designed to make ownership as expensive and cumbersome as possible. Regardless your stance on abortion/BC, do not pretend there are no consequences for you and other gun owners (even if you really, really, really want them/others to subsidize birth control or whathaveyou). This is how you vote as a gun owner, as opposed to by flights of fancy that sound good at the time, with no regard for the consequences.

"No, [the left opposes free exercise of religion] only when it interferes with the rights of others"
Well, there actually are groups that seek to remove tax-free status from churches, with the obvious goal of making them unaffordable for the masses in dense urban areas (if not everywhere) favored by like-minded persons. Looking at the end result and the means (pushing it through over objections by parishioners) it looks quite a lot like religious suppression. When looking at the various activities that have become prohibited on the ever-expanding scope of 'public facilities/areas/gatherings' due to governmental growth, it strains belief to think that the clear stated language of the 1st amendment has not been stretched into hostility against all religions (and when viewed against the backdrop of the rise of socialism/statism/populism in which the State is the article of worship, looks quite a lot like religious suppression).

"America was the first explicitly secular country, and the first to reject rule by divine right"
Yet somehow our Deist founding fathers did not reject the vast majority of so-called 'divine principles' when it comes to individual rights, dignity, expectations we should of our society, expectations society should have of its members, and the most basic core tenants of law (which were established under an England ruled by divine right since its beginning). They rejected a very few specific areas that had proven to be prone to abuse throughout history, but hardly rejected the body of principles as a whole. So the notion that faith should not merely remain unestablished or not be officially recognized in law, but should be actively purged from the public sphere of which public government is invariably an important part in any society (and is increasing in ours today) is ludicrous and in direct opposition to the kind of religious protections promised by the first amendment.

"It is not about logic, it is about political power."
And you know what someone who should know said about political power; it grows from the barrel of a gun. And not just because Mao killed a lot of people; far more powerful was the effect of his possessing a disparity of force in the first place. Enemies were silenced, the masses cowed, and the Party unified merely by the unopposed threat represented by his monopoly on arms in China. When Democrats begin officially agitating for large-scale confiscation of firearms from their sworn political opponents --and how else would you characterize what we are witnessing-- what conclusions are we gunowners supposed to find? That despite every historical example to the contrary, they just want what's best for us and wish us no ill will? To "get along?"

No. They mean to rule us. The other assorted political parties may be right and wrong on many issues, but no others are yet at the stage of posturing for a final power play on democracy in this country.

I'm afraid that any gunowner enabling this suicidal march can only be described as a useful idiot, who somehow mistakenly believes they will not be harmed by their party's slide into despotism, while retaining their firearms. Just as usefully idiotic as a paycheck-to-paycheck Republican voting against people who would steal enough free stuff for them from others to get themselves out of that situation; it's just that that person isn't quite as discordant as a gunowner voting to have their own door kicked in for falling afoul of some future gun law (because that hasn't happened since the Lautenberg Amendment, right?)

TCB
 
Because it is not about logic or facts.

The lady who wrote the column, "What is was fake on the Internet this week" gave up.

What she found is that the people who believe in the crazy stuff don't read debunking articles. The same is true for the anti gun crowd. They are not interested in hearing, listening, understanding, your arguments....

That is a factor of human nature and common to both sides of almost every issue. The farther one is to one side or the other the less likely they are to even consider the other sides argument. Instead anything they don't agree with is rejected out of hand. It is a lot easier today as you can find media on TV, print, and online that only discusses one side.
 
Yet somehow our Deist founding fathers did not reject the vast majority of so-called 'divine principles' when it comes to individual rights, dignity, expectations we should of our society, expectations society should have of its members, and the most basic core tenants of law
That is because the US Revolution happened during the Enlightenment. It wouldn't have happened 500 years earlier, when divine right was at its peak. All those rights you mention come straight from Locke, Rousseau, Hume, Voltaire, Bacon, and other thinkers who were pushing the ideas of individual rights and the roles of government to the fore. The US Declaration of Independence and Constitution are directly the result of the Enlightenment. When Europe was at its religious peak, the Middle Ages, no such ideas were permitted to circulate. In fact many were executed who tried.
 
"Why aren't we better using facts to counter the Antis' arguments?"

Because they Anti's don't care about facts, they care about "feelings".
 
^^^^^^^ This right here!!! I was about to type it.

Liberals don't care about facts, if they did they would have realized a long time ago that socialism has never and will never work anywhere. Let alone when it comes to guns.

I also believe we can't have a logical discussion about firearms with liberals when their ultimate aim and objective is total disarmament. Dont be fooled by the anti's smoke and mirrors about "were not coming for your daddy's shotgun" the end game has and always be total confiscation and thats why they will never accept legitimate arguments in defense of the 2nd Amendment.
 
Leftists, and the Democrats who pander to them to get their voters, have already reached frightening levels of Second Amendment rights denial, hysteria, paranoia, and bigotry, and if they don’t turn back soon, things could get very bad.
 
While I'm all for belittling Democrats, the point of the thread was how to deal with the anti-gunners' "facts". This has turned into a thread demonizing gun owners that vote against their own self interest. I have 3 very liberal buddies that have arsenals compared to my meager collection. They already have their guns so they don't care how difficult things become for others to acquire arms. It's hypocritical, sure. But not an answer to the OPs question.

As others have stated the antis only have one goal: no guns. Any restriction is a win for them and they will twist any statistic to suit their agenda. They don't care if it happens today or 100 years from now. It is a religious fanaticism with these people. They will never give up. Thankfully most of America can see through their smoke and mirrors and believe it or not, we have had major wins for gun rights in this country the past decade or so.
 
"Why aren't we better using facts to counter the Antis' arguments?"

Because they Anti's don't care about facts, they care about "feelings".

I think your feelings are getting in the way of the fact that people on both sides of the issue will emotionally charge their arguments and claim that their 'facts' are better than what the other side has to offer.
 
True, but the facts tend to support only one side of the issue, ultimately leaving the other with emotion, alone --this goes for all controversies.

TCB
 
True, but the facts tend to support only one side of the issue, ultimately leaving the other with emotion, alone --this goes for all controversies.

TCB

Not when both sides only get their "facts" from sources that agree with their personal view.
 
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True, but the facts tend to support only one side of the issue, ultimately leaving the other with emotion, alone --this goes for all controversies.

TCB

Look, this is untrue. There are studies that support their view. We can dismiss them, or we can do our own research. Ultimately, I don't think the research matters, because I take gun ownership rights as a philosophical position. But do not simply dismiss them as not doing (what at least appears to be) data-driven research:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

We need to be more rigorous, analytic, and objective to prove them wrong.
 
Look, this is untrue. There are studies that support their view. We can dismiss them, or we can do our own research. Ultimately, I don't think the research matters, because I take gun ownership rights as a philosophical position. But do not simply dismiss them as not doing (what at least appears to be) data-driven research:
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/

We need to be more rigorous, analytic, and objective to prove them wrong.
There are "studies" on the Holocaust which support the "views" of Ernst Zundel and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

The studies which refute the anti-gun cult have already been done by Lott, et al.

What do THEY have? FRAUDS like Bellesiles.
 
Look, this is untrue. There are studies that support their view. We can dismiss them, or we can do our own research. Ultimately, I don't think the research matters, because I take gun ownership rights as a philosophical position. ...

There are studies on just about anything you want to prove or disprove. Be it drugs, guns, poverty, racism... etc.. All too often the sample is somehow biased. When university is named, it is merely a handpicked study that proved what who paid for the study wanted to prove. The results are strictly controlled. Studies that don't prove what was intended for all intents and purposes don't exist. It's career suicide for a researcher to rogue and publish results that were not supposed to get out.

chuck
 
You're asking two very different questions here.

Why aren't we doing this? versus How can we do to this better?

Before tackling any of this, you need to understand that education only works when the educator is addressing a need (as in a desire to learn something specific) that the student has. You can't teach something to someone who isn't interested in learning about it. This isn't a myth or stupid cliche, it's a fundamental tenet of education.

I think that's the biggest obstacle we face in dealing with people who oppose the RKBA. Just last night, an anti told me I need to go re-read the Constitution, because the only "militia" he knows of is the National Guard. I mean, how many times and in how many places has this particular part of the Second Amendment been addressed and clarified for understanding, over the past few years? I honestly believe most of the people who are opposing us on the gun issue simply don't care about the learning the truth. If I'm right about that, then there is nothing we can do to change their minds, educate them, etc.

It's not a matter of inadequate education, it's a matter of an unwillingness to learn. This issue is much more about emotion than it is about facts and data.
Re: the Constitution, for your pal who suggested YOU go back and read what it says about militias. Here is the absolute best "explanation" I've yet seen.
https://www.billwhittle.com/firewall/your-second-amendment

Your points about education, and those who do not wish to be educated, are right on the mark. To those people, facts, data. logic, reason, take a back seat to their agenda and their emotions. Kind of like those who are in the cult of global warming.......or evolution.
 
There are studies on just about anything you want to prove or disprove. Be it drugs, guns, poverty, racism... etc.. All too often the sample is somehow biased. When university is named, it is merely a handpicked study that proved what who paid for the study wanted to prove. The results are strictly controlled. Studies that don't prove what was intended for all intents and purposes don't exist. It's career suicide for a researcher to rogue and publish results that were not supposed to get out.

chuck
There are "studies", yes, and too often, the expected results are paid for like, say, with the global warming cult's studies. But there's also hard data to draw from like the FBI's stats that show gun crime has dropped in half since 1990 while gun ownership has more than doubled during the same time frame.

I don't think the FBI is, nowadays, a Conservative-leaning organization, especially since, um, 2008.
 
Kind of like those who are in the cult of global warming.......or evolution.
Or spherical Earth, heliocentric solar system,
and the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Dang, where do those people come from?

(Rhetorical question; they emerge from rotting turnip leaves.)
 
The easy answer is facts/truth does not matter when they fuel the fire with emotions. The anti's really have no facts or truth. "Gun Safety" is not about safety for you. It's about "safety" for them. Once they take your guns they are "safer" for them to control you.
Gun Control is about controlling guns from you not them.
 
Kind of like those who are in the cult of global warming.......or evolution.
Of wow - talk about ignoring facts. You are not helping our cause with this one. You should stick to guns because, buddy, you literally do not know what you are talking about. As they say, science works.

Kind of ironic that your next statement is this:
Your points about education, and those who do not wish to be educated, are right on the mark. To those people, facts, data. logic, reason, take a back seat to their agenda and their emotions.

If we have a bunch of science deniers out there speaking on our behalf, we really lose credibility. Gah - just when I thought we were getting somewhere.
 
I am still waiting for even on piece of evidence that global warming is real.

Data predicts we are actually on the verge of another ice age. Other than the fabricated global warming report from the 1990s (remember when it was discovered they were placing thermometers above outdoor condensing units?) the only actual data to suggest the planet MAY be warming was the NOAA report. But this was a revised report, as they eliminated the 2 coldest years from their initial report. I believe it was a 12 year study and they shrank it down to 10 years so they could say "look, the planet warmed .01 degree during this time".

It truly is frightening at how passionate the climate-pushers have become. There just isn't any evidence to support it. Only computer-based models which predict the possibility of future warming.
 
Poboy said:
I am still waiting for even on piece of evidence that global warming is real.

Here ya' go. I use this site for reading material for advanced courses on climate change.

It's sponsored by the AIP (American Institute of Physics) --- you know, physics, the science that helps us evaluate velocity and energy, ft lbs, gun powder, etc.

I'm standing with Roscoe: denial of what's happening by too many gun owners is only hurting our cause.
It ranks up there (oh, wait ... down there) with denial of the value of guns by the anti's.

Come on guys: get real --- educate yourselves about what's happening on the planet.

Knowledge of climate change motivates and promotes gun ownership. It did for me in 2007.

Roscoe said:
..wow - talk about ignoring facts. You are not helping our cause with this one.
You should stick to guns because, buddy, you literally do not know what you are talking about. As they say, science works.

---

If we have a bunch of science deniers out there speaking on our behalf, we really lose credibility. Gah - just when I thought we were getting somewhere.
 
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