trend towards no BUIS?

Let's get realistic here. Short of being a LEO or member of the armed forces the likelihood of you needing an ar to save your life are less than getting struck by ball and regular lightning in the same day

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About the same as needing my CCW to defend myself at the shopping mall. Yet most of us still carry a concealed handgun, do we not? Thanks for confirming my point about statistics and playing the odds.

Like I said, it's real easy to say it'll never happen, until it does. This logic can be applied to anything. You can be real glib about carrying a flashlight until you need one. A reload, until you need one. A backup gun, until you need one. We all have to make our own decisions about chances and risks we are and aren't willing to take. Those who have had optics fail are less likely to take chances regarding them. To me, this issue in particular, is one of the easiest no-brainers imaginable. For it is NO trouble whatsoever to equip your AR with back-up sights.

Besides, is it really as unlikely as you think? Do all the high end optics manufacturers not have repair departments? By your logic, the odds of one failing are so statistically insignificant, companies like Leupold, Burris, Nikon, Aimpoint, etc., should hardly ever have to fix one.

Let's get realistic here. Short of being a LEO or member of the armed forces the likelihood of you needing an ar to save your life are less than getting struck by ball and regular lightning in the same day

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Right, except this thread really isn't geared toward equipping a civilian's rifle for traditional civilian purposes.

We all know that for 99% of the everyman's applications, a BUIS isn't necessary. Heck, a primary sight for that matter isn't necessary, because the lack of one only means we lose a day of plinking at the range, as opposed to coming home in a wooden box with a flag draped over it.

So what's the point of this thread?

You know that whole "the 2A isn't about hunting, it's about being able to ensure this country remains a free one" thing? If you believe that, and it's not an unreasonable financial burden, you may as well equip a rifle to fill that role (even if it is unlikely we'll ever need one, which I agree on btw). Let's face it, it isn't discussed on this board, and that's fine - but that doesn't make it a less legitimate reason or mode in which to keep a rifle.

The military isn't even teaching irons in boot camp any more.
Although, a lot of the issue-rifles may still be equipped with them.

Everything is ACOG ("RCO" Marine Corps -- "M150" Army) now.

I shoot my rifles recreationally.
If my optic fails, I probably call it a day.

In the military, there is an option of picking up "somebody else's rifle" in a firefight I suppose. In the civilian world, not so much.

I'll probably keep a set of irons on my "end of the world" gun.
Two reasons:

• because I know how to use them
• because my scope isn't as high-end as the ACOG

I should shoot my "end of the world" gun more.

Another consideration for a civilian is that economy minded shooters likely don't have a second optic ready to go on each rifle they have that has an optic.

If the primary optic goes down, true, the end of the shooting that day is likely done. With back up sights, at least the gun is still usable while we send out the failed optic for a repair or replacement. I really don't like it when one of my guns is in an unusable condition. Even if I wont find a use for it for some time.

The military isn't even teaching irons in boot camp any more.

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Ive heard this a lot lately. Does anyone know when this change happened? Or has anyone attended basic training or boot camp in the last decade who can vouch for its legitimacy?

I went through basic training (USAF) in 2004 and we learned to use irons. My brother went through boot camp (USMC) in 2005 and says they used irons exclusively. Both optics and irons in SOI. Buddy went through Army boot camp in late 2010 and says they learned irons, but quals were with "CCO/M68" red dots. That's the most recent information I can grab outside of Internet hearsay.

If you think you dont need irons on your rifle, dont put them on. I am still trying to figure out how your in the stone age by not running irons.....I figured it would be the other way around. Around here I usually catch a few jabs when I am shooting my A2 carbine because it has that loop thing where the rail is suppose to be.

I am former Army, was taught irons. Did not see my first RDS til I was dropped into Iraq. I still kept my irons. They didnt run on batteries, they were tougher, my rifle was lighter, and thats what I was use to. Even though we had these cool new Red dots, everyone still kept their irons on their rifles.

I agree that RDS are awesome and can help marksmanship, but all my RDS equipped carbines still have buis.

Military, LE, or Civilian......Murphy's Law still applies.

Let's get realistic here. Short of being a LEO or member of the armed forces the likelihood of you needing an ar to save your life are less than getting struck by ball and regular lightning in the same day

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That is not the point.

Having a backup of anything is always a good thing, and never a bad thing. Doesn't matter if that is your primary weapon or safe queen.

For a range/plinking gun or spare, it may be ok to skip it. But for those who use their rifle for HD/SD, competition, or Duty purposes, a BUIS is a must IMO.

Quote:
The military isn't even teaching irons in boot camp any more.

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Ive heard this a lot lately. Does anyone know when this change happened?

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Roughly 2013/2014

Everybody gets an RCO or an M150 (a.k.a. ACOG).
If the rifle even has a rear iron sight (MATECH), it cannot be deployed/utilized without removing the ACOG.

When I was at Quantico at zero-dark-thirty last year for the Fleet/Navy matches, a huge centipede of boots ran past my car as I was sitting in the parking lot at WTBn. Every single one of them was toting an RCO-equipped M4. It was still too dark to tell for sure whether there was a rear sight.

My young boys will be learning on Iron Sights soon.

After having my scope mount fail right as I headed out on a week long hunt in New Zealand and being unable to fix it I definitely prefer BUIS and insist on them on my AR. Even trying to secure the scope down with fishing line and zipties I could barely hold on a pie plate at 30 yards. If the same thing happens to my AR it would take 5 seconds to detach my scope and switch to irons

a silly trend, i've seen broken $1000+ scopes. always keep my flip up magpul 'irons' on my ar15s.

W.E.G. said:

Roughly 2013/2014

Everybody gets an RCO or an M150 (a.k.a. ACOG).
If the rifle even has a rear iron sight (MATECH), it cannot be deployed/utilized without removing the ACOG.

When I was at Quantico at zero-dark-thirty last year for the Fleet/Navy matches, a huge centipede of boots ran past my car as I was sitting in the parking lot at WTBn. Every single one of them was toting an RCO-equipped M4. It was still too dark to tell for sure whether there was a rear sight.

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Thanks for sharing

Have you guys never lost or broken a front sight before? What did you use for a backup?

tarosean said:

Have you guys never lost or broken a front sight before? What did you use for a backup?

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Never experienced or witnessed it. I have seen a front sight base ear snap off after an IED incident, but the post was still intact.

Never experienced or witnessed it.

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Ive lost a small hand full of sights over the decades, albeit mostly from handguns. Probably around the same number of optics that have crapped out on me in the field.

taliv said:

i sure would love to see the .mil statistics on optics sent back for repair.

and for those of you bringing up the mil stuff... how much of their activity is in the dark with night vision and a PEQ2 or PEQ15? how will BUIS help you then? What will you do if your PEQ falls over?

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About 70% of our operations were in the dark. Very little helped. Irons didnt help, eotechs didnt help, M68s didnt help, ACOGs didnt help. White light helped, but that was a death wish and not a good way to make friends.

Using night vision (NODs) the PEQs flood beam was extremely handy for night patrols in the towns and villages. You could "light up" alleys and doorways with out using white light. The PEQ laser had to be zeroed. The one thing that the PEQ laser was good for was shifting fire and pointing out objects of interest to others.

One thing to note, night vision was an awesome tool....but it was not perfect.

taliv said:

how will BUIS help you then? What will you do if your PEQ falls over?

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I am not sure what your getting at here. Your a Soldier....you adapt, thats the Army answer. The real answer: You have 8 other well armed dudes around you with functioning equipment.....get out of their way if you cant fix the problem without technology. Fight like its the late 60's...lol.

I'm replacing my BUIS with BUTSWTI (backup titanium sights with tritium inserts) for superior weight and visibility.

well your backup to your rifle going down is typically your sidearm....

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The vast majority of soldiers don't have a sidearm. Typical M9 quantities in a battalion are single digits or low double digits...for 400+ soldiers. And for HD, who grabs an AR and a pistol? And where do they stick the pistol? (I know there are answers, I personally have one <armor with an empty holster, spare mags, light etc. under the bed>, but my point is, it is easy to say the sidearm is the backup but is it really?)

Personally, I'd be fine with no BUIS running a solid magnified optic like an ACOG. They are pretty much bullet proof and you'd have to remove the optic to use the irons anyway. With a RDS, I figure you might as well have a BUIS, it is issued (or not very expensive to purchase), it can't hurt. I've deployed once each with ACOG and Aimpoint, had a BUIS, it was the issued Matech that just sat there. I'd have been cool w/o it running the ACOG.

Now, do all my civilian AR builds need BUIS? Heck no, I'll save the money. My primary HD AR has them and I put the Magpul ones on a couple others just 'cause, but since then I've decided no more BUIS if it isn't something I'd grab in a defensive situation.

A half an hour after the balloon goes up, iron sights will rule the world.

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Ammunition, food, water and batteries will become currency.

taliv said:

exactly. I'm just saying that the people who feel BUIS are necessary for a red dot, do not put a backup IR laser on their rifle, even though more than half their shooting will be at night.

even though I'm just a civilian, I shoot at night with an IR laser more often than in the daytime, and figure if I ever "need" an AR, it will be at night. If I could get a reasonably low cost, unobtrusive, super light weight back up IR laser, I would. I think the odds of an IR laser failing are WAY higher than an aimpoint or eotech failing.

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Not disagreeing with you, I just see the buis/irons as part of the defensive rifle, like some see a sling as part of the rifle. A laser is not part of the rifle. I guess I am just getting old, LoL.

If we are speaking Civilian purposes, I am sure most dont have the need or have the funds to drop on an IR laser and the nods required to make use of that laser. As Civilians , there is less of a threat in using white lights, and we are urged to use white light to ID possible threats. Not to mention that white light can be used as a deterrant weapon by blinding possible threats.

i sure would love to see the .mil statistics on optics sent back for repair

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Several years ago a former USMC CWO and I were chatting about the change-over to optics in the USMC.

The CWO is currently employed in some sort of rear-echelon position related to equipment.

He told me that the USMC (some three years ago) has THREE - count 'em THREE - RCO'S in inventory for each Marine. That's including cooks and mechanics.

I didn't cross-examine him, but I gotta think that if an RCO craps out in the field, it goes the same place practically any other crapped-out piece of kit goes.

Into the trash can.

Everthing a Marine or a Soldier carries in the field is consumable.

I'm moving the other way. I'm beginning to prefer irons only and skipping on the "backup optic". Irons arent as accurate as a scope or as fast as a dot, but they weigh almost nothing, are always on and can take a hearty beating without damaging something expensive to replace.