Why 25 yd min for rifle

At my local indoor range, there are the occasional shooters that hit walls, floors, and ceilings if they shoot at targets closer. In other words they have no concept of what is behind the target.

After enough blown out light fixtures, the rule was enacted. However, If you have proven yourself to not be a noodge, they will forego that rule. For example, I can bore sight and follow-up sighting in a new scope or sights on my rifle.

I think it is valid.

Because any closer and the shooting line is likely to be splattered with high velocity bullet fragments from a rifle.

It is also very hard on back stop deflector plates, etc.

It is also possible ejecta from a rifle at close range could set the back-stop / bullet trap on fire.

Or impregnate the bullet trap with unburned powder, which also might burn the range to the ground eventually.

Anyway, their range, their rules.
The only option is build your own range, and make your own rules, I guess??

rc

My local indoor range has the policy that any shoulder mounted firearm must be shot at the full 25 yard distance. I have asked many employees (mostly RSOs) and no one seems to understand why. Does anyone know the foundation for this rule. If so, what is it, and do you think it's valid?

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I don't know your range's exact reasons, but I can share some of the ones we run into:

Targets placed against the backstop mean bullets hit in exactly the right place -- just behind the target in the backstop. Targets placed out farther from the backstop start to involve shot angles that get "iffy." Yes, if you pull the target in on a perfectly straight line to your muzzle, the bullets should still hit the same spot. But if you're a little taller or a little shorter or the target's a little left or right, now you're shooting down, up, or left or right at it, and the closer it gets to you the more of an angle off of the perfect line you're shooting at.

Like so, except in 3 dimensions:


That CAN mean you're putting rounds into the ceiling, into the floor, or into the walls and/or target hangers and other equipment if the issue gets extreme. And rifles do a lot of damage -- even more than handguns.


Now a corollary point to that is that very close-in targets are often used (and/or often ENCOURAGE) faster, more rapid engagements. That's a valid thing to practice as you never know just where your adversary's going to appear, and the closer he is, the faster you're going to have to get on target and shoot, a lot. But it is "sloppy" shooting from the standpoint of where do those bullets end up. If you're shooting 3-5 shots a second at an "Extreme Close Quarters Combat" target scenario, you aren't putting those 3-5 shots per second into a neat little 2' square impact zone back at the berm or backstop. That's just the nature of the situation. So when we do practice those things we need to ensure that we're on a range that can handle, and contain, impacts scattered over a larger cone of fire. And yeah, we tend to do that stuff WAY closer to the berm than 25 yards.

So the range may very well be seeing a combined benefit here. By restricting targets to back against the backstop, they're getting better containment of the impacts, and they're also encouraging people to slow down and take the required care to be able to hit their target that far away, which again, contributes to better containment of the bullet strikes.

I do not see why any one would shoot a rifle any less than 25 YD. I bore sight a lot of rifle and do not need to be any closer. I would say for range safety.

I do not see why any one would shoot a rifle any less than 25 YD.

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Not all shooting with rifles and carbines is target shooting, or precision fire at targets a long way away. Statistics on shots fired in battle tend to show most are well less than 300 yards, but that's not the whole picture.

Soldiers, police officers, citizens defending themselves, and shooters in "practical" disciplines like 3-gun, have to engage targets at ranges that are often measured in feet, or a very few yards. This is not sniping, or taking expedient shots at targets of opportunity. This is FIGHTING with a rifle. It is essential to practice those things if you want to succeed at them, as the techniques and speed of these engagements is not similar to plinking, slow fire shooting off a bench rest, or taking a rested position in the field for a careful shot.

However, it sounds like this range is not the place for that sort of work.

I have asked many employees (mostly RSOs) and no one seems to understand why. Does anyone know the foundation for this rule. If so, what is it, and do you think it's valid?

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I'm going to guess bullet splatter if you hit something solid like a target holder. "Shoulder fired" is the easiest way without going caliber by caliber.

If it's like the one I used to work at, the answer is simple....

Each lane costs money, and ranges with backstops capable of stopping rifle rounds cost at least twice what a lane that only needs to stop pistol rounds costs. Therefore, the last two lanes (which have additional armor) are designated for rifle rounds.

Most of the time it's because that's the way it has always been done. And the "We said so." rule.
However, like rcmodel and Sam1911 say, it's a valid thing. Riccochets, etc. Plus the adage that shooting a cf at 25 puts you on target at 100.

Aim small miss small and the baffles/walls they have mint not be rated to stop rifle rounds.

Go to an indoor range and look up, down and around and see where all of the "unintended" shots have impacted, they just want to minimize damage.

Yep, that's pretty much it. Reduced damage to the walls, floors, and ceiling.

The old range I frequented was a 15 yard minimum for rifle/shotgun (slugs only for the same reason)

I will add that I have also been to ranges that limit the ranges one can shoot pistols, unless you "qualify" with them at shorter distances with an RO with you.

Even then they still have restrictions. In the end it is "their sand box", if you want to play in it you follow their rules or play somewhere else, even if you don't agree with them.

Statistics on shots fired in battle tend to show most are well less than 300 yards, but that's not the whole picture.

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After WW1 Hatcher conducted a study and established from that the 300yd standard employed in assessing hit potential, but part of that was being able to visually distinguish the target.

Ok. My point was merely to say that no one should take ANY measure of distance several hundred yards out as representative of practical fighting ranges. Shots at 200, 300, and beyond are certainly possible in many theaters of combat, but the art and skill of fighting with a rifle must encompass a very healthy component of extremely-close-quarters work (say 25 yards and less) because that represents a significant number of the lethal threats a solider, and certainly a police officer or home-defending citizen, is going to face, and the speed of action and skills required to prevail are not very much like the skills needed to put rounds on an enemy at 300 yards.

The bullets flight to a hundred yard target crosses the line of sight at about 25 yards,
this allows a shooter to sight in a rifle at 25 yards that will also be sighted in at 100 yds.
I expect this is where the rule of twenty five yards for the rifle came to be. Just My 2

Good Shooting

Lindy

Nice illustrative graphic, Sam1911!

Not all shooting with rifles and carbines is target shooting, or precision fire at targets a long way away. Statistics on shots fired in battle tend to show most are well less than 300 yards, but that's not the whole picture.

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You would be hard pressed to find many police sniper shootings that are beyond 100 yards. IIRC correctly, the shortest was just a matter of feet and the longest nearly 500 yards, but most not very far, mostly because of the nature of the areas where they occur. It is hard to set up a 500 yard sniper shot on a one story house in the middle of a neighborhood. Chances are, you will be just across the street.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2005/08/sight-picture.aspx - 51 yard average

Nice illustrative graphic, Sam1911!

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Same clip art stuff I use to do my IDPA stages.


At a VERY nice, modern indoor range I belonged to years ago the local Sheriff's department borrowed the space several times a year to do their qualifying. The problem wasn't that their officers were all bad shots, but they'd set up slightly more "challenging" shots and have officers shoot from kneeling or prone and shots ended up going all over the place.

We got to know each newest junior deputy pretty well because that was always who they'd send the following week with a stack of ceiling tiles and a pail of paint to repair the damage.

You would be hard pressed to find many police sniper shootings that are beyond 100 yards...It is hard to set up a 500 yard sniper shot on a one story house in the middle of a neighborhood. Chances are, you will be just across the street.

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There is a lot of places where there are no "neighborhoods" but yes population density by simple math will make it more likely needed in city's.

That said in the county our farm is in I know the sheriffs department doesn't even practice beyond 100 yards because we own the range they use.

Your zero should be very close with any centerfire rifle between 5 and 25 yards.

I just wish range employees could explain why they have rules. I guess I'm just pick y that way!

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Well, that's just AN explanation of why it could be so. Never underestimate the weight of "JUST BECAUSE." The range employees may have no idea why the owner wrote the rules he did. (Though if you ask them, they'll probably tell you whatever they think, true or not.)

The owner, in turn, may be a really thoughtful guy who put a lot of care into writing the least restrictive rules he had to write in order to protect his patrons and equipment.

Or, he may have picked a few rules that he saw somewhere else, or just tossed down a bunch of pet peeves ("Aww, I HATE it when THOSE PEOPLE show up at a range and start X, Y, and Z! I'm gonna write a rule that keeps them away!"). There's plenty of shooters who don't much care for folks who don't shoot just the same way they do, and it isn't beyond a range owner to be that way, too. Though his wallet will probably benefit from being as liberal as possible in his policies. Chasing away paying customers is bad, unless they're truly dangerous and destructive.

In the end, who know why the rules are what they are? We can guess, but only the owner knows.