6.5 Creedmore instead of .308?

I'm really not the best person to answer your question, but there are more winners at matches using the 6.5 now than 308. Here is a link that may help.

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2015/04/25/how-much-does-cartridge-matter/

On the other hand I've seen some guys shooting 308's with 210-215 gr 30 cal bullets with BC's in the .7 range at ranges of 1500-1800 yards.

While not integral to the subject, I cannot get 6.5 Grendel at Walmart. I'm a hobby reloader, not a serious bench shooter, and my .308 is more than accurate with even that brass cased Italian stuff at WalMart for $12. I can do a little under an inch 5-shot group, cold barrel at 100.

Sierra 's number is inflated... it's not in the .500's, Brian litz puts it at .464 for the 155 tmk... and if you really wanted performance in the Creedmoor most competitive shooters are using the 140gr. I have been using the 123gr amax in my Creedmoor and the wind really effects it at distance. And have been considering the 140 berger hybrid to help cut the wind.

farmerboy78 said:

Sierra 's number is inflated... it's not in the .500's, Brian litz puts it at .464 for the 155 tmk... and if you really wanted performance in the Creedmoor most competitive shooters are using the 140gr. I have been using the 123gr amax in my Creedmoor and the wind really effects it at distance. And have been considering the 140 berger hybrid to help cut the wind.

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The last part of this post sums up wind-drift quite nicely, actually. No matter what you're shooting, once past 300 yards you have to pay attention to the wind.

That said, from when I've been on the firing line, the 6.5s and hot 6mms definitely have an edge over the common .22 and .30-caliber cartridges. You get less recoil than the .30s and a significant improvement in wind drift over the .22s. You're not going to be shooting a dead-on no-wind zero, but if you can improve it by even 1-MOA, that's a smaller windage range you have to keep track of.

And the TMK is a fairly recent development. Using conventional BTHPs most of the 140gr 6.5mm offerings are more slippery than the common 168 to 175 match bullets.

One last thought: I can't recall anybody who used a .308 unless the rules of the class required it (ie: Palma, F-T/R or Service Rifle with an M1A).

It's a great cartridge for competition.

For a regular guy, you will never see enough practical benefit to warrant the significant extra rigmarole.

If you are just punching paper informally, the 243 winchester will do anything those two will with far less recoil and you can find ammo anywhere.

Good luck finding affordable brass.

Casefull,

The long 6.5 bullets fly very well but when you start talking about serious long range work you need to take a close look at equipment. Most are high dollar barrels. trued actions, adjustable triggers, custom stocks and top of the line optics. We are talking major bucks. For the average Joe that shoots out to 400-500 yards, the cost is prohibitive and not necessary.

I got weak and bought a Vanguard in 6.5 Creedmoor Been a big fan of the 6.5 family for years but there are a few flies in the ointment. We have one good local gun shop that has reloading supplies. There was no primers for 6 months. Then the powder disappeared. Now I can't find brass and it isn't better online. The only brass in stock is Norma and it is $36 + shipping for a bag of 25. Then there is the subject of dies. Creedmoor is a class D in RCBS dies which equals $$$.

So for now I am stuck with factory ammo and waiting for my $60 dies to come in. If I had to do it over I would have stayed with my 260. I already have dies and brass is easy to make. I have lots of 243 and 308 brass.

just my opinion & where it comes from

• longer, heavier bullets have better ballistic coefficients(BC)
• in 6.5 this means 130+ grains
• in .308 it means 190+
• heavier bullet means more powder to keep it supersonic out to 1000m
• heavier bullet and more powder => more recoil
• I shoot 30-06 and 6.5 swede and I'm building 6.5 creedmoor
• 6.5 creedmoor will have shorter barrel life
  
• if you're shooting factory ammo .308 or .30-06 will be much cheaper than 6.5C
• using the best BC bullets I could find for both, 140 grain 6.5 starts to have more remaining energy than .308 around 500-600 yards
• bullet drop at 1000 yards is about 11 feet more with .308 .vs. 6.5C
• the biggest factor to me would seem to be how recoil sensitive are you and how much will you shoot it at one time. I'm not particularly sensitive but 210 grain, hot 30-06 loads deliver quite a thump. After 100 of those you're going to feel it the next day. A 6.5 with the same ballistic performance you'll barely notice the recoil
• if you need to reliably kill something that doesn't want to be killed at 1000yards or better you probably need to move up into .338 territory but that's serious recoil and big bux for equipment and ammo. I can't afford to play in that game
• I calculate for practice ammo $0.38 for .308 and $0.44 for 6.5C allowing 3000 shots before barrel replacement with 6.5 and 6000 for .308
• for premium competition rounds the numbers are 0.96 for .308 and $0.86 for 6.5c (heavy competition bullets are more expensive than lighter ones)
• here's a cheap way to estimate ballistics and see the effect of different loads: http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator
• one, among many, sources of BC data for premium bullets is: http://www.nosler.com/accubond-long-range-bullet/

Captcurt said:

Casefull,

The long 6.5 bullets fly very well but when you start talking about serious long range work you need to take a close look at equipment. Most are high dollar barrels. trued actions, adjustable triggers, custom stocks and top of the line optics. We are talking major bucks. For the average Joe that shoots out to 400-500 yards, the cost is prohibitive and not necessary.

I got weak and bought a Vanguard in 6.5 Creedmoor Been a big fan of the 6.5 family for years but there are a few flies in the ointment. We have one good local gun shop that has reloading supplies. There was no primers for 6 months. Then the powder disappeared. Now I can't find brass and it isn't better online. The only brass in stock is Norma and it is $36 + shipping for a bag of 25. Then there is the subject of dies. Creedmoor is a class D in RCBS dies which equals $$$.

So for now I am stuck with factory ammo and waiting for my $60 dies to come in. If I had to do it over I would have stayed with my 260. I already have dies and brass is easy to make. I have lots of 243 and 308 brass.

Click to expand...

I use .243 and .308 brass (.308 win brass works better) and run them through my FL sizer die without the mandrel to form the Creedmoor case, I then neck turn the brass, trim to length, and finally neck size the brass. 6.5 Creedmoor brass is harder to come by and that's why I make my own. I buy once fired Norma .308 brass from gunbroker and it is $50 for 100 once fired cases. Once fired works alot better than virgin brass for this process because it's slightly harder and will shape without deformation of the side walls. I had that issue with virgin Norma brass and winchester.

Captcurt said:

Casefull,

The long 6.5 bullets fly very well but when you start talking about serious long range work you need to take a close look at equipment. Most are high dollar barrels. trued actions, adjustable triggers, custom stocks and top of the line optics. We are talking major bucks. For the average Joe that shoots out to 400-500 yards, the cost is prohibitive and not necessary.

I got weak and bought a Vanguard in 6.5 Creedmoor Been a big fan of the 6.5 family for years but there are a few flies in the ointment. We have one good local gun shop that has reloading supplies. There was no primers for 6 months. Then the powder disappeared. Now I can't find brass and it isn't better online. The only brass in stock is Norma and it is $36 + shipping for a bag of 25. Then there is the subject of dies. Creedmoor is a class D in RCBS dies which equals $$$.

So for now I am stuck with factory ammo and waiting for my $60 dies to come in. If I had to do it over I would have stayed with my 260. I already have dies and brass is easy to make. I have lots of 243 and 308 brass.

Click to expand...

I've had kind of the opposite experience, i just got a RPR in 6.5 Creedmoor, and was able to pick up cases and loaded ammo at my Sportsmans Warehouse. I ordered Hornady bushing dies and a .286 RCBS bushing from Midway. SW actually had a couple sets of dies in stock, but since this will be a purely target rig, i wanted to try the FL bushing dies that seem to be so popular now.

I shoot a .308 as my other (and until now only) distance rifle, but when I decided I needed an RPR, I went with a 6.5 for a couple of reasons. First, pretty much everyone else at my long distance range shoots a 6.5mm of some variety (with the exception of a .243, a .284 and another .308. They all swear by the wind bucking qualities of the heavy, slick 6.5's. In a place where variable 25 - 35 mph winds are common, this can make a big difference. Second is cost, I shoot mainly 178 Amaxes in my .308 and they run me $34.99 per 100. The same store sells 140gr 6.5mm Nosler Custom Competition HPBT's for $19.99 per 100, or $49.99 per 250. Given that the CC's have a much higher BC (Litz measured .549 G1) than the 178 Amax, and I should be able to launch them 100 - 150 fps faster than the Amaxes my wind deflection will be significantly less . Lastly and most importantly, I got the 6.5 mm because it's a fascinating, purpose built little target round, and I've been interested in one and wanting one for a while. We'll see how it works out.

p.s.~ As another poster has already pointed out, those 155 TMK's don't seem to be quite living up to their published numbers, i believe Litz's data puts them in the .47 G1 range.

It's CREEDMOOR!!!!

I've been shooting the. 308 Win for years and shot F-Class for three years with a custom Remington that had an awesome Krieger barrel. I've had an AI chambered in .308 Win for about six years and that thing just plain shoots. However, I recently swapped the barrel on the AI for a Bartlein chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and the truth is that it's so much easier to shoot well and make consistent hits on small targets at long range. An error in wind speed is easier to deal with shooting a 6.5 Creedmoor versus a .308 Win.

http://www.tactical-life.com/tactics/experts-precision-caliber-of-choice/

I don't like the idea of having the wrong case head stamp so I simply shoot factory Hornady 140gr A-MAX ammunition and then use the brass to make custom loads. The factory stuff is amazing with consistent 0.5 moa or better loads so a great choice for those that don't reload. I just ordered 700 of the new ELD 140gr bullets from Hornady since the 140gr A-MAX shoot so well.

Recoil? I put a few hundred rounds down range with my .308" Ruger Precision Rifle today shooting M118LR spec ammo and didnt even notice the recoil. I didnt buy the creedmore gun because if I had another 10 more sessions like today and I'd be starting to look for a replacement barrel. That would be a barrel or two a year. That and the Creedmore barrel is too long for the RPR.

yugorpk said:

That and the Creedmore barrel is too long for the RPR.

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Nah, I like the 20 in barrel on my relatively svelte (for a target gun) CTR, but the RPR is a chunk either way. I'd just as soon have a few more inches of barrel on a rig like that.

It is an amazing round! I have a savage lrp that is one of the most accurate rifles I have... there is no way a .308 can compete and I have a 1/2 moa .308! To about 500yds it is hard to see the advantages, but when you step out to 600+ the 6.5 begins to shine with the 123gr amax I can consistently shoot moa or better with my lrp... but, I picked up 500 of the 140gr berger hybrids today to try in the lrp since I use them in my 6.5-06 and that would make a little more room on my bench... oh yeah, and I picked my lrp up from the smith today as well! I had the muzzle threaded to shoot it suppressed like nearly all my other rifles!

Why not a 6.5 x 284 ? http://www.bergerbullets.com/michelle-leech-cup-2013/

Here's some real numbers for barrel lives across several cartridges used in long range competition by those getting the best results:

.308 Win, 3000 rounds
.260 Rem, 2000 rounds
6.5x.284, 900 rounds
.243 Win, 1500 rounds
.300 Win Mag, 1200 rounds

That's based on them starting out at about 2/3 to 3/4 MOA then degrading 50%.

A good idea of what's expected can be seen in results from long range benchrest matches. Here's one:

http://www.pa1000yard.com/wo/choosewostandings.php

Set the options to:
Year, 2015
Class, Light gun
Match, 1 or 2
Sort, Group
Show, Yes
How Many, All

Then click "Submit"

Go back through other lists and note how many groups are 5 inches or less.

Look at:

http://www.pa1000yard.com/hof-recs/records.php

...then compare the group aggregates. They're the average of several groups fired. Largest single group in each is typically 50% or thereabouts larger.

A popular way to define accuracy for a rifle, bullet, cartridge, etc., is by the smallest few shot group fired. I don't subscribe to that. Once that tiny group's shot, the chances of equalling it are slim. I prefer to use the largest group fired; it's easy to shoot smaller ones and it tells you what the greatest miss distance from your point of aim will probably be; all other variables outside the rifle and ammo excluded.

Anybody who thinks a high BC .308 doesn't recoil a lot more than a 6.5 of equivalent ballistics has not shot both. Doesn't mean the recoil of the .308 is legendary, just more. If you're telling me you put 300 rounds of .308 that were still supersonic at 1000 yards then we share a high recoil tolerance.

Plus I never dissed the .308. I like it. It's a nice 30-06 with a smaller gas pedal

Want a lot of recoil from a 7 pound .308 Win rifle?

Shoot some Sierra 240 or 250 grain HPMK's from one with a maximum load.

I don't understand the fixation on barrel life. If you shoot enough you're going to need to replace a number of barrels. If you buy factory ammunition you'll spend anywhere from four to six times as much on ammo than on a new barrel. Even if you reload you'll still spend a lot more on ammunition than the barrel. I'd rather increase my chances of hitting small targets at long range by choosing an appropriate cartridge than make my decision based on barrel life.

Its a 10 pound gun with a 3/4" pad shooting a high mid range cartridge. While I'm sure the 6.5 is pussycat Ive always considered the .308 a pussycat round too. My old lightweight solid butt pad 300 H&H I'd call ore of a stout round gun but no more than a 12 gauge double. Recoil is all in the mind.

I was wondering about the long range benefits that are touted for the 6.5 creedmore caliber. I compared the bc of 6.5, 130g tipped matchkings to .308, 155g tipped matchkings. BC in both rounds is .518/.519 and max loads for both examples are in the 2900 fps range. So my question is other than recoil and a few grains less powder what is the advantage of the 6.5 over the 308? Is the recoil that much less than the 308?

It seems that if the 6.5 was the old time round everyone had, then the 308 came along, it would be heralded as a great advancement.

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The ballistics of a 6.5 are better than any 308 bullet. As Bart B notes, push a 6.5 fast and your barrel life will be short. I was pulling targets with weekend at a 600 yard midrange, the bud I was pulling with mentioned he had a 6 mm or 6.5 mm Rem Magnum. It shot fantastically well at long distance, barrel life was less than a 1000 rounds. Depending on how vastly rich you are, that might make a difference or not.

Bud was shooting a 308 Palma and doing well. While the 6.5 ballistics are always going to be better than a 308, actual hitting the target takes experience and judgment. If you are a terrible shot, going magnum, or going better ballistic coefficient won't improve hit probability. The shooter on my target actually did better than I, (I shot 308 Win) and he was shooting a 223. Our 223 service rifle shooter shot one 191 at 600 yards, we were all happy for him as that was a good score in the cold, dark, windy conditions we had. The fingers on my left hand froze, it was extremely painful!

The US military, more than any other organization, delayed advancement in 6.5 caliber bullets. When the US military supported target shooting, that is prior to 1968 when they stopped supporting the National Matches, what the military wanted you to shoot was a service rifle. They were in it to train civilians to shoot service rifles. So they wanted civilians to shoot service rifles and service rifle ammunition and that is what you shot. You fired 30-06 or 308 Win. The good match bullets of the period were 308. Once the Army walked away from civilian marksmanship, and marksmanship in general (military on average are horrible shots) civilians were free to experiment. NRA competitions is staffed with individuals who won and set National Records, these guys have been slow to change the game, because they want their records to remain relevant, and the game to stay the same. The civilian market has been pushing these guys forward, and bullet manufacturer's have responded. The selection of good 6.5 mm bullets is better than it has ever been. So is the selection of good 308 bullets.

Is 6.5 a better caliber than 308? For target shooting, I would say yes. But for all other things, it sort of depends.

There's a reason why the long range guys say the 6.5 Cree is "cheating".

It just shoots flatter, farther, and with better accuracy than any .308 load. It really is the premier cartridge for target shooting in the power class division.

What is the typical accuracy a 6.5 Creedmore produces at 1000 yards from a well built bolt gun and ammo?

20-shot group is needed so it'll be statistically significant. That's what you'll need in an NRA long range bullseye target "any rifle" match trying to keep all of them inside 20 inches for a perfect score.