More specific question about 223 defense ammo

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Balrog

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Sorry for the questions about 223 ammo for defense. I think it would help if I clarify what I my requirements are.

The gun involved would be a 16" AR carbine. The purpose of the load would be short range defense (i.e., in a home and on the farm). I guess I could think of a scenario where I might need to defend myself against someone further than 50 yards but it would be a stretch.

There are other family members around, so I would like a load that will not penetrate through multiple walls if possible. I don't plan on needing to shoot through cover or concealment, nor would I anticipate armored opponents.

So to summarize the parameters:
1. Defense load against un-armored human bad guys.
2. Minimize penetration to avoid collateral damage, and no requirement to defeat barriers.
3. No need for long shots.
4. Cost per round is unimportant, I am not planning on stockpiling this.

I like the looks of the Winchester PDX 1 60g HP.
Also considering a Hornday 55g TAP polymer tip.
How about M193?
What about a non fancy soft point like Winchester Power Point?

Thanks
 
In my own opinion, all four of your choices are valid. None of them are "stinkers" or decidedly sub-par to the rest.

The Hornady stuff has gathered quite a following because it is purpose designed and seems to work as advertised.

A hollow point would offer the least penetration, compared to a softpoint or FMJ, but not the "explode on impact" you'd get from an actual varmint bullet. They (varmint bullets) are usually very thinly jacketed to encourage violent bullet upset, but a defensive round would have a thicker jacket to allow controlled expansion, much like defensive rounds for handguns.

I would not sneeze at a garden variety softpoint for HD. I use Federal SP in my own carbine for HD. Just because I'm a fan of Federal, not because it is decidedly superior to anybody else's offerings in .223.

M193, my favorite general use round, has one drawback. If used in an environment where there is a chance of a bullet travelling more than about 300 yards without impacting something, fragmentation goes to almost zero and it will penetrate a lot more than you'd expect from that small bullet.
 
Of your listed options, I'd take the 60 PDX.

I like 75gr BTHP for mine, mostly for 2 reasons:

1.Reports from deployed servicemen on the antipersonnel effectiveness of the MK262 77gr OTM round at close range, and...
2.The LACK of recommendation for service use where intermediate barrier penetration is desired on DocKGR's well researched list of recommended defense and duty loads.

And actually the reason for 75's rather than a 77 SMK mk262 clone, is ballistic testing shows negligible difference in performance...and the Hornady is cheaper.

ETA... i really wish people would stop recommending the VMAX bullets for defense. Explosive expansion does not equal dependable stopping power. The TAP urban load was developed for departments more concerned with the liability of colateral damage than the round's effectiveness. It doesnt offer adequate penetration to constitute a dependable defense load. And no, you won't be putting 5 or 6 rounds into an attacker. Presented with an armed defender, an intruder/attacker will do one of 3 things: turn to flee, maintain distance and open fire, or close distance to grapple, club, or stab. In none of those situations will you be placing multiple aimed, accurate shots on a stationary target. Your first round or two had better do the trick.
 
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My vote goes towards a light, high velocity varmint round like a 50 or 55 grain hornady vmax. Am I the only one who thinks the lighter and faster the better? Especially for soft targets at point blank ranges.
 
To the OP:

Repeating my post from two earlier threads, 10 rounds of Prvi Partizan 55gr soft points over 10 rounds XM193 are what I load in my carbine. I live on the outskirts of a small town in a semi-rural area with plenty of trees.

This should take care of most any contingencies you or I might encounter.

M
 
Do a search for NATO HANDBOOK EMERGENCY WAR SURGERY and download it or better yet buy a copy.

Go to chapter II entitled Missile Caused Wounds and it will tell you all about soft nose and FMJ wound cavitation.

On a 223 round per the Army Wound Ballistics Lab wound lethality deteriorates quickly once it is past 95 yards. That is with a 20" barrel. With a 16" barrel you will be launching slower thus your wound lethality will likely drop to circa 85 yards.
 
My vote goes towards a light, high velocity varmint round like a 50 or 55 grain hornady vmax. Am I the only one who thinks the lighter and faster the better? Especially for soft targets at point blank ranges.

You're not the only one, Hornandy thin jacketed 55s are what my rifle is loaded with. I live in town in a town house and reduced over penetration is a concern.

I don't think I'm giving up much effectiveness, the ballistic tip hollow points transfer energy very quickly. The biggest downside is giving up the ability to shoot through concealment, but that's a trade off I'm willing to accept.

BSW
 
Something that will penetrate at least 12" in gel (and hopefully reach the vital organs through bone and any angle) which isn't the 55g TAP. The 64g power point does way better in gel and punches through less walls than the 55g TAP. Or a 77/75g OTM, or the 62g Fusion, or one of the TSX copper bullets. All do well in tissue, none penetrate as much walllboard as even a 9mm HP.

Pretty much any 5.56 is going to penetrate less walls than a duty caliber handgun or shotgun with buckshot, so pick a 5.56/.223 bullet with good terminal performance.
 
Self defense at 80 yards likely: No.
Possible: Well?

Where some folks live that a remote possibility.
Where I live for instance, what if my granddaughter was out back on the swing when someone ran over and tried to kidnap her, I run out to stop it and the guy driving the getaway car 80 yards away starts shooting at me?

Again: likely? No.
But nothing wrong at all with having a tool that works every bit as well at 240' as it does at 10'.

55 Blitzkings are what's usually loaded in mine.
 
I think an 80 yd self defense shot is unlikely, but its definitely possible.

I think I have about decided I like the Hornady Match 68g BTHP round that rocks along at about 2960 fps as a compromise round between heavy and light weight, good velocity, and good penetration but not as much hopefully as the 75 g BTHPs. What do y'all think of that round?
 
I highly recommend 55 gr soft points, an expanding bullet will have far more stopping power than anything else.
 
Keep a mag of Winchester 64 grain SP Power Point ammo. I have killed a deer with it, John Noveske told me it was the best in SBR rifles he had found. It ranges well to say 250 meters, shoots well in 1-9" or quicker twists , feeds well, is very accurate and some high profile SWAT teams prefer it. It's penetration is limited but about ideal for deer sized targets :) I reccomend buying 100 and shooting up 30 or so verifying a previously sighted in gun and loading a couple/three mags up with the rest. Note allthough quality control is not as tight because it is not LE grade the Winchester Super X Power point is basically identical to the Ranger version and more available and cheaper

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2uMOv1YSXo

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...ammunition-223-remington-64-grain-power-point

Suposedly and in testing doesNOT make it thru 2 sheets of drywall :)
 
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My vote goes towards a light, high velocity varmint round like a 50 or 55 grain hornady vmax. Am I the only one who thinks the lighter and faster the better? Especially for soft targets at point blank ranges.
Would they hold together well enough (considering impact would be at roughly muzzle velocity) to ensure adequate penetration? I realize the OP (and most of us) are concerned with overpenetration in HD situations, but you still need a bullet that will properly penetrate your attacker/s. I've not seen related penetration tests, but I'm sure they're out there.
 
Honestly I keep my Daniel Defense in my bug out bag. I use a Glock 34 MOS as my main home defense gun. But my house is pretty small. A long slide 9mm with a light on it and HST's in the mag is a pretty sweet rig. Obviously a rifle is a better choice 9/10 but I prefer the ease of a pistol. Actually almost had to use the AR once to protect my family a couple years ago. Thank God I didn't have to. But I believe I had Nosler Defense, I think they are 64 grains in a 40 round Pmag. Not sure on the VMax debate. I'd argue a strong case in favor of it inside the distance of the average dwelling. But not without actually doing ballistic tests. Isn't that Winchester defense ammo supposed to hold together and reduce penetration?
 
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