Entry into long range shooting

Hey, welcome to THR from another person in Nebraska!

.308 is a really good caliber to get into PRS. Most will argue otherwise, but cost (overall), performance and longevity make it one of the most versatile cartridges in use today. Load data is extremely easy to find, powder choice is extremely broad, and it is a 1000 yard capable round with the right pills going down the tube.

I may catch some flack for this, but I really think a 20" barrel is hurting your long range dreams more than you might imagine. One of the hardest parts of long range .308 shooting is wind drift and bullet drop. Chopping off 4" hurts your velocity so much that you'll have to run higher pressures and use more components to hit 1000 yards. A 175gr Sierra MatchKing needs about 2550 FPS to hit 1000 yards supersonic. Heavier bullets will need more umphf behind them to get them to 1000 without insane amounts of drop.

Barrel stiffness, ehh, if you are really serious, you'll be swapping barrels to something more rigid anyway and what changes in barrel stiffness between lengths will be more than made up for by a higher quality barrel.

Bart B. said:

I agree that those cartridges doing well in PRS matches at 200 and 400 yards shooting at their square or round 2 to 4 MOA targets do well through several thousand rounds. Have any of them put 20 rounds inside 3 to 4 inches at 600 yards or 7 to 8 inches at 1000?

I doubt any PRS rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA at 200 to 400 yards all the time. Those few benchrest rifles holding records at 300 yards put several 5 or 10 shot groups under 1/2 MOA.

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You don't have much of an understanding of PRS or Pratical-Tactical matches do you?

Sure some smaller regional practical shooting matches may be 200-400 yards withe 4 MOA targets to better simulate typical hunting field conditions. Most of us spend a lot more time shooting past 400. All actual PRS matches or any big matches like the Steel Safari have stages from 50-1200 yards on an average 2 MOA or smaller target. Many targets being MOA and some being smaller on KYL stages. The larger than MOA targets are almost a requirement on some stages where we are shooting off hand, weak side or from an unstable barricade position. These types of matches are more like field conditions or just are way more fun than setting up I'm the perfect position to fire 20 shots into the target to most people.

I respect the precision of benchrest/target shooters and have learned a lot from guys who do that kind of shooting especially when it comes to reloading. The problem is I don't particularly like taking the time to reload to insane levels of precision and prefer pretty darn good to near perfect to be out at the range instead of seated at the bench. Some guys really enjoy making near perfect ammo and putting 20 shots into a ragged little hole off the bench and more power to them.

I think the OP is thinking more along what my type of shooting is having fun at various distances in field conditions and maybe even off a bench now and then. I am sure 5 shots on a steel target MOA or less from prone will probably have him grinning ear to ear and is what the idea is here rather than your requirement of 20 shots into a little hole at 1000, something most practical or recreational shooters don't really care about.

I respect the dedication you put into shooting and must say you are a likely a much more patient man than I am. Just give us PRS type guys a little more credit than 400 yards and 4 MOA.

Whiskey11, I agree with you that velocity is absolutely important for a .308. It would probably be best to go with something over 20" in .308 but my 20" LW Barrel putts 175 SMK's down range at 2650fps and easily gets out to 1k and slightly beyond. Get past 1250 and then I wish it was longer. I do have the advantage of living at a mile high though...

I wouldn't worry much about barrel stiffness either as most target barrels are plenty stiff.

I'm probably more familiar with PRS stuff than you think, COLOSHOOTR.

I used the 200 to 400 yard events because they're straddling the range where the most accurate benchrest rifles holding records shoot 1/2 MOA; the number mentioned earlier:

I'm guessing most guys sticks are running 1/2 MOA or less through replacement.

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Thought that would be a good comparison; 300 yards. 1/2 MOA accuracy to me is all fired shots go inside that angle; not the average of several groups nor the smallest one ever fired. The smallest group fired is a popular way to state rifle accuracy.

As far as i'm concerned, no rifle will shoot 1/2 MOA at worst through 1250 yards over 5000 rounds of barrel life. They all slowly degrade starting with the first shot. Only a handful have set few-group benchrest records averaging 1/2 MOA or less at 1000 yards. All the single groups are often larger; much larger.

Saggins - I don't have any experience with the Sighttron, but I DO have experience with the 6.5-24 Viper PST FFP as that is what my M1A Loaded wears. Glass is clear and the turrets are super reliable with loud audible clicks. Illumination has never been used aside from sitting at home, but it works well. I have zero regrets about the purchase at all and it has held up to the double recoil impulse of my M1A's action (which is notoriously hard on scopes).

If you are in the Lincoln area and want to look through one before buying, shoot me a PM and you can look through mine some time.

Get the best glass you can afford. It's absolutely worth it in the long run. I only wish I had gotten that advice when I got into long range shooting. I've spent enough on scopes to have purchased two S&B scopes.

Since your using a modern action don't forget the 6.5x55

Spend more money on the rifle than the scope. Why do otherwise? Which one do you want to perform most repeatable and precise?

^ Exactly what he said. With scopes you absolutely get what you pay for. The Vortex PST line is a decent starting point if you absolutely can not afford anything else but if you can scrape together a little more for better glass it is worth it! That scope is the most critical piece of equipment on that rifle. It has to be absolutely precise to dial in changes and return to zero every single time. I also recommend FFP as the math is much much easier that way. It's really hard to know what adjustments to make when you are dialed down to 10-15x due to mirage when your reticle is only accurate at max magnification.

You'd flip if I told you the price of the glass on my rifle and I got hooked up with an excellent deal on mine. It's actually almost 3 times the price of my first rifle. The only reason it is not more expensive than my rifle like Bart said is because I'm crazy and bought an AI.

I think you're underestimating Vortex. I've come to love them. They do just as well as my Leupolds, Nightforces, and sightrons.

trentcwwilson said:

I think you're underestimating Vortex. I've come to love them. They do just as well as my Leupolds, Nightforces, and sightrons.

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I am absolutely not underestimating Vortex at all. One of the best scopes on the market and probably one of the best values out there is the Vortex Razor Gen 2. It's 100% better than the PST and I've used both. The PST really is decent if you absolutely can not afford better but it's not a high end optic by any means.

Nightforce scopes are excellent too especially that ATACR line. Sightron is just another budget offering and while I've heard okay things about them I think the PST or a Bushnell Elite Tactical line scope is better for those on a budget.

I hate Leopold! Let's just say I've seen plenty that don't track for **** and they are just catching back up to everyone else, yet still trailing behind , technology wise. I get them for the reduced government price too and am still not interested. They could give me one for free and I'd sell it to buy a Vortex, S&B, Steiner or Tangent Theta.

4-16x50 PST FFP on my LR.

COLOSHOOTR said:

I am absolutely not underestimating Vortex at all. One of the best scopes on the market and probably one of the best values out there is the Vortex Razor Gen 2. It's 100% better than the PST and I've used both. The PST really is decent if you absolutely can not afford better but it's not a high end optic by any means.

I hate Leopold! Let's just say I've seen plenty that don't track for **** and they are just catching back up to everyone else, yet still trailing behind , technology wise. I get them for the reduced government price too and am still not interested. They could give me one for free and I'd sell it to buy a Vortex, S&B, Steiner or Tangent Theta.

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Haven't heard of the last 3 you mentioned

The Schmidt and Bender (S&B) PMII is the gold standard of tactical scopes. Almost every single western military uses them including the Marines and various JSOC units.

Steiner is another top end optics company that produces high end tactical rifle scopes and they have military and LE contacts around the world too.

Both those have Germany glass, known as the best optical glass in the world.

Tangent Theta was formerly Premier and has some high end scopes with some really cool features. The turrets are probably some of the easiest to adjust/zero out on the market.

What would you recommend for a novice?

Gen 2 Razor or Steiner T5Xi. Best glass for the money and you can sell them, especially the Razor with its high demand, and darn near make your money back if you don't catch the bug and decide long range isn't for you.

If you really are not sure try out the PST or a Bushnell. They are pretty decent and track well. I understand it's rough to jump in head first and go all out but it does usually save money in the long run if you do get into it. If you do decide to go with a cheaper option it can always be put on a trainer when you upgrade later on.

With the 260 dingo I shoot already....the bug has bitten me. More than once.

It's a very evil, expensive and highly contagious bug isn't it?

I only say go better because I went cheap, then went a little better then even better to a higher end Bushnell then to my current Steiner. Going with a higher end scope first would have actually been cheaper than buying all those other ones first.

It's poison on the wallet. That 260 was nuts. 180 for the custom made dies, 1600 for the rifle, $100/50 first time. Goes down to $50/50 once brass is fireformed. It's a lot of money, but the gun and it's target/hunting capabilities are just downright amazing.

Saggins said:

Back to my current decision... scopes. I certainly welcome any suggestions but my desired features are: a minimum of 20x max zoom, a MOA style FFP reticle, and a hard price limit at $1000 (before sales tax). Everything is negotiable but the price, Im happily married and would love to stay that way haha.

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If my wife knew how much I've spent on my gear I'd be in big big trouble. She knows is was all expensive and is generally supportive of my shooting and I bought a lot of it over time so it was not a huge hit at once and she has generally been okay with it. I did the math not too long ago and I still think she would flip with the total. Good thing it was one thing at a time or she would have never approved.

Congrats on the rifle! I think you'll be very happy with the 6.5 Creedmoor. It is a great cartridge and Hornady is really marketing the 6.5 CM so I think things will just keep getting better as more rifles come out in chambered for it. I can't wait for Lapua brass!

What exact model did you get and what are the specs?

$1k will get you a decent scope but be prepared to shell out $2-3K in a few years when the fever really kicks in. Probably after your first match and I highly recommend trying some matches they are a ton of fun!

There is a PRS Match in Nebraska this year and within driving distance in Wyoming. I'm going to try to hit one of those or the Team Safari match in Wyoming this year of my brother can get it off. Look at Precisionrifleseries.com and competitiondynamics.Com for good matches. The practical rifle matches in Raton New Mexico are fun too. You'll learn a ton and have a great time even if you're not on the top of the score card.

Way too much mag!

MtnCreek said:

Way too much mag!

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Idk. I found my 3-9x44 nikon on my match 10/22 to be too small. I'm now at 6-24x. I really like to see what I'm shooting at 200 yards.