Not a shotgun but a "fire arm" great now I need one...

If it were built on a "shotgun" receiver wouldn't it still be a short barrel shotgun subject to overall and barrel length restrictions.
The letter they include appears to be from a trade / safety board NOT the ATF.
I'd tread carefully, and the arm brace issue is always there. Shoot it from the shoulder in the wrong environment and you could find yourself in trouble. It looks to be a real fine line to me.
There's always the possibility of arguing (right or wrong) the legality of it in court to an uninformed Judge / LEO.
To each their own, I just like being a little further from the grey zone.

I'm sure others with more 'legal expertise' will weigh in

I wouldnt want to be the guy in court, that used this "firearm" in a home defense case.... Good luck explaining that its not a shotgun, not a pistol and not a rifle.

Its from a receiver that never had a buttstock so it never was a "shotgun" because real shotguns have buttstocks so that they may be shoulder fired. It meets the minimum length requirements to be a "firearm" instead of anything else like an AOW or short barreled shotgun. The ATF has already ( stupidly ) ruled that thing on the back is not a butt stock so there you have it. It's a "firearm" and not a shotgun and according to the letter of the law and ATF rulings, it is kosher. BTW that opinion letter is an actual ATF opinion letter from Max Kingery at the ATF technology branch ( the part of the BATF that rules on stuff like this ).

It is about $800 overpriced. Grab a pistol grip shotgun and add a "brace" and you can cut the barrel down to make it as useless as you want to make it and you'd still be legal according to the feds. Your state may think differently. Over 26 inches without a butt stock and its a "firearm".

My question would be where did the receivers with no butt stocks come from and more importantly what were they designated as when serial numbered. Not sure if any major manufacture is gonna sell receivers designated 'other' to be turned into a 'firearm' assembled by another.

http://www.impactguns.com/mossberg-50440-500sp-12-18-cb-6sh-syn-50440-015813504409.aspx

Its a pistol grip model 500 Mossberg. They sell bunches of them. It does not transfer out as a shotgun on a 4473 because it does not have a buttstock.

I've re-read the letter several times. The letter talks about attaching a forward assist to a PISTOL. I don't believe a shotgun without a butt stock is a pistol. Might be legal, but ...

The pistol question came up because it never was a shotgun. We are conditioned to think of anything smoothbore that takes shot shells as a shotgun. Not the case because there never was a buttstock. "shotguns" by law NEED a buttstock . If I took a pistol grip smooth bore gun and made it under 26" it would be a pistol because it meets the legal definition of a pistol ( except for the smooth bore ) and more than likely a destructive device because the ATF has ruled it to be that in past rulings as it is over 1/2" bore. It would not be a short barreled shotgun as it never had a buttstock. It could be an AOW if registered as such if it has a forward grip. If I make it over 26 inches overall it is a "firearm even if it has a forward grip. Thats what they have done with that one. They have taken a pistol gripped shotgun and attached an "extension" out the back. Just like sig "pistols" are not SBR's that thing is not a "shotgun" .
To make things illegal you have to define what you are making illegal. If your definition is too tight you end up with stuff like this puppy because it is not specifically enumerated as being illegal given its features. If the definition is loose the entire law gets thrown out of court as being too vague.


Knock it all you want these are good things. Instead of being arbitrary and capricious the ATF has actually been following the letter of the law no matter how poorly the law is written. It makes them look bad because the law is bad. Sometimes they back off when they get a lot of heat but they havent been over reaching without underlying law to back their rulings up.

Oh, I'm not knocking it, just trying to figure out how'd I deal with it as a RSO. Had someone with a SIG braced AR pistol on our outdoor 'pistol range' not a problem. Then he started shooting it from the shoulder. Told him shoulder fired guns had to be fired from the 'rifle range'. Relayed the story to the CRSO at a later date and he got a little excited. Never thought about the SBR issue at the time ... My bad.

The only thing setting this aside is the home built ACES magazine. Is it reliable? Quick reload if it works right, might make an excellent breacher, quick swap of the mag to buck from the ceramic hinge removers. Other than that, it's a really neat toy, maybe throw it in an overhead rack on your Mad Maximized War Rig. Actually, Max would probably have loved it.
Would probably be fun with reduced target loads.

ford8nr said:

My question would be where did the receivers with no butt stocks come from and more importantly what were they designated as when serial numbered. Not sure if any major manufacture is gonna sell receivers designated 'other' to be turned into a 'firearm' assembled by another.

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You can get PGOs and receivers from Mossberg, and on occasion from Remington (they can be hard to find), but in the case of these magazine fed receivers, Black Aces Tactical makes them.

Any manufacturer selling a receiver must sell it is a "firearm" to be within the law. there is no manufacturer "designation".

Mike

Actually, they produce their own receivers.

They are interesting shotguns, but be careful. State law can still complicate things.

Thanks Mike and others, I knew someone with a better understanding would chime in. Learn something new everyday.
Even though they my be technically legal seems like they my be more trouble the worth. I'll have a talk with our Range CRSO to see how'd we deal with one on the range. Not a pistol, multi pellet cartridges only allowed during events (3 gun), trap, skeet or patterning board. Slugs on rifle range, would be ok if fired as a firearm with forward assist but would most likely have to be aimed (no shooting from hip) otherwise to hard on target stands ... Mmmm

ford8nr said:

My question would be where did the receivers with no butt stocks come from and more importantly what were they designated as when serial numbered. Not sure if any major manufacture is gonna sell receivers designated 'other' to be turned into a 'firearm' assembled by another.

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They are custom made receivers to allow for the box magazine. They are virgin receivers, they are not purchased as completed shotguns and converted.

Although, you can do the same thing with a factory PGO Mossberg 500, Remington 870, etc.

One, the Brace currently is considered not a stock - and not legal to use as a stock against the upper torso, AIW the Open Letter and it's less than precise language.

Two, we tolerate AR pistol discussions in the rifle forums. If this by legal definition isn't a shotgun (and no argument from me, I get it,) sure, it technically doesn't belong. However, since it's a "Firearm" where else do we discuss like items?

I frequent other forums where posters frequently ask questions about SBR's in the AR pistol forum. There are significant legal differences between the two, and a subforum for NFA weapons that is active. Yet the questions get posted "out of place". People tend to treat a gun by it's root origins, not it's legal classification. If it shoots shotshells then it gets posted in shotgun forums. It's also where most of the interest might lie, too, vs being an a catchall forum where they only have one consistency - being a niche gun.

Some personal experience on the matter. A few years back, I went to buy a new shotgun. I was under 21 at the time and the clerk informed me that because of that, I could not purchase one of the Mossberg's with a pistol grip (I didn't really want a pistol grip). I could however purchase one that came with a stock installed and a pistol grip to the side. If a shotgun doesn't ship with a stock, it is a pistol.

Telemachus said:

If a shotgun doesn't ship with a stock, it is a pistol.

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No, Its not. Its an "Other Firearm" on the 4473 block 18. Federal law requires purchasers of "other firearms" such as receivers and anything not meeting the legal definition of a long gun or handgun to be 21 or older. The "Other Firearm" designation is also why you can have a short barrel on one that never had a buttstock. It was never an actual long gun so it was never a shotgun. It just needs to be over 26 inches so it doesnt qualify as NFA then it can have whatever barrel length you want so long as the overall length is >26".

I do believe that shotguns are different than pistols and rifles, in that a rifle receiver manufactured are either a rifle, OR a pistol, never anything in between. The reason the shotgun is not is that its definition was given a different option, that of "firearm", neither shotgun or pistol. Therefore the restriction on a forward vertical foregrip is legal on a FIREARM, when it is not legal on a PISTOL. Doesn't have anything to do with the SIG Brace or any other pistol stabilizer - personally quite fond of the Thordsen's Cheek Rest kit, pictured below. It would be a monster indoors, HUGE muzzle flash and report, but very easy to maneuver. I might suggest throwing a set of powered hearing protection on top of where it sits for home defense. On the other hand...wonder what Dragons Breath would look like out of that thing...



BTW, if I am wrong, would someone with more experience in the NFA world please post the right info? I THINK I'm right, but I've been wrong before, (just ask my wife), and will be wrong again.

Yep. Your'e wrong. A "pistol" that is over 26" OAL or a receiver built as such can have a forward grip and not be an OAW. You just can't start with anything that was ever an actual butt stock equipped rifle. It's in the same class as the above " Other Firearm "

http://www.franklinarmory.com/PRODUCTS_XO-26B.html

I do believe that shotguns are different than pistols and rifles, in that a rifle receiver manufactured are either a rifle, OR a pistol, never anything in between.

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That's incorrect. A stripped AR receiver is just a receiver. It's called into NICS as an "Other Firearm". What the assembler builds it into is what dictates if it's a pistol or a rifle.

That was kind of what I said, ugaarguy , "rifle receiver manufactured are either a rifle, OR a pistol" I know receivers can be purchased as Other, but I was talking about completed items, sorry for not being clear.
yugorpk, thanks, never heard of that, always interesting. Another reason I don't play the NFA game, too darn many stupid rules that contradict each other.