Slomo videos, Glock 17 Gen4 and CZ-75B

I'm sure a more consistent grip of an experienced shooter will lend itself to better video and a more accurate comparison between the two pistols.

Nice videos, bye the way.

MacTech

Good videos! Probably your nephew's loose grip contributed to his perception of felt recoil with both guns. A friend of mine use to shoot with his index finger on the trigger guard. He was always complaining that when he used a handgun accuracy and control seemed to be very inconsistent. So I watched him at the range and every time he fired a shot his finger flew off the trigger guard, taking away from where it could have better supported his grip. Once he started wrapping all of his fingers around the front grip his accuracy and controllability improved greatly.

You'd think he's shooting a .44 mag from those videos. The trigger guard grip is a waste of time and never has been an effective way to hold a semi automatic pistol.

You'd think he's shooting a .44 mag from those videos. The trigger guard grip is a waste of time and never has been an effective way to hold a semi automatic pistol.

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i beg to differ....on a pistol that was designed for it (like the glock and CZ), the trigger guard grip i find gives you much more controll over the recoil of the firearm......because instead of controlling recoil from 1 point( the grip).....are are controlling it with 2......functioning to the same effect as a VFG.......

M-Cameron said:

i beg to differ....on a pistol that was designed for it (like the glock and CZ), the trigger guard grip i find gives you much more controll over the recoil of the firearm......because instead of controlling recoil from 1 point( the grip).....are are controlling it with 2......functioning to the same effect as a VFG.......

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It can...but not the way it is being done in those videos. If the finger comes off at the moment of firing, it isn't doing squat.

I feel a really good shooter can use that technique, most people aren't really good so they are just introducing another wonky variable in their grip.

Indeed it's hard to compare with the grip used, but its also impossible for the cz to have more recoil than the glock due to the weight alone, tho the recoil could be precised different due to the different designs.

Isn't the square trigger guard so common on today's semi autos originally designed for shooting off a barricade?

Isn't the square trigger guard so common on today's semi autos originally designed for shooting off a barricade?

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i seriously doubt that shooting off a barricade is common enough to require the need for them to ingrate that into the gun.....

and square trigger guards pre-date a lot of the "tactical" barricade shooting....


a trigger guard grip is much more likely

He really needs to work on his grip... cannot imagine what the other side looks like.

M-Cameron

Quote:
You'd think he's shooting a .44 mag from those videos. The trigger guard grip is a waste of time and never has been an effective way to hold a semi automatic pistol.

Click to expand...

i beg to differ....on a pistol that was designed for it (like the glock and CZ), the trigger guard grip i find gives you much more controll over the recoil of the firearm......because instead of controlling recoil from 1 point( the grip).....are are controlling it with 2......functioning to the same effect as a VFG.......

Click to expand...

I don't know of a single firearms instructor, police department, federal LE agency or any military that teaches such an antiquated technique. The "trigger guard grip" was in fashion for about as long as Levis Super Bell jeans.......for good reason. It doesn't work as well as other techniques.
To say it functions to the same effect in controlling recoil as a VFG is just plain silly.



The only reason Glock squared off his trigger guard was because it was a fad in the late '70's early '80's for 1911 custom shops to checker or stipple the front of the trigger guard.

Using a fingers forward of the trigger guard technique on some revolvers will teach you a painful lesson.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2313371/posts
While that guy used a VERY thumbs forward grip, any digit forward of the trigger guard carries a risk

340PD Isn't the square trigger guard so common on today's semi autos originally designed for shooting off a barricade?

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Nope.
Go look at some of the old gun rags from the disco era and you'll find plenty of articles about checkered front straps....but no mention of using them against a barricade.

That doesn't mean that someone found such a purpose, but it wasn't the original intent.

I don't know of a single firearms instructor, police department, federal LE agency or any military that teaches such an antiquated technique. The "trigger guard grip" was in fashion for about as long as Levis Super Bell jeans.......for good reason. It doesn't work as well as other techniques.
To say it functions to the same effect in controlling recoil as a VFG is just plain silly.

The only reason Glock squared off his trigger guard was because it was a fad in the late '70's early '80's for 1911 custom shops to checker or stipple the front of the trigger guard.

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the mechanics are there, you have a downward force creating a moment to counteract the rise of the muzzle........giving you 2 points of contact over 1.

as far as department training.......that really doesnt make much of an argument......hell, for years, people were taught isosceles stance.....then everyone determined that isosceles sucked, and we all needed to learn Weaver......now weve all kind of determined that weaver sucks more than isosceles and weve all gone back to that.....and in some cases not even bothering to teach stance at all....

ive found in the majority of cases.....the training "of the day" is based on whatever is cool and trendy, and in many cases, what looks cool...........not necessarily on what is most effective.

and a lot of the time is goes unquestioned......hell, some high level trainer will do something....and everyone else will just start teaching that, because "thats how they were taught" or "thats how they do it at XXXXX"......with little to no thought as to why....

You have stumbled upon an excellent teaching tool with the 240 FPS setting. Previous posters have pointed out Logan's foibles in grip and trigger control, so I won't add much except I definitely agree with dogtown tom; the 'trigger guard grip is antiquated. It was effective with semi-auto pistols at the time it was introduced, but there are better methods used now; and yes, I will attest that firing a revolver with such a grip can HURT! I fired a Python that way once, had the left index finger on the frame. It was numb for a while!

I think the young man is working to emulate a well know expert.

For those who think the finger on the front of the trigger guard on a pistol is wrong, jump to 11:35 on the video.

the training "of the day" is based on whatever is cool and trendy, and in many cases, what looks cool...........not necessarily on what is most effective.

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Seems to me Competitors in action pistol figured it out decades ago...
While the tactical crowd eats up the flavor of the month.

Interesting to see how as soon as he starts pulling the trigger, the muzzle dips ~2 deg before the cartridge fires.

I agree that you should repeat with more experienced, full grown shooter, to rule out limp wristing.

M-Cameron

Quote:
I don't know of a single firearms instructor, police department, federal LE agency or any military that teaches such an antiquated technique. The "trigger guard grip" was in fashion for about as long as Levis Super Bell jeans.......for good reason. It doesn't work as well as other techniques.
To say it functions to the same effect in controlling recoil as a VFG is just plain silly.

The only reason Glock squared off his trigger guard was because it was a fad in the late '70's early '80's for 1911 custom shops to checker or stipple the front of the trigger guard.

Click to expand...

the mechanics are there, you have a downward force creating a moment to counteract the rise of the muzzle........giving you 2 points of contact over 1.

Click to expand...

"Downward force"? Not a bit. Force applied to the front of a trigger guard is REARWARD, not downward.....that's why skateboard tape, checkering or stippling was done to the frame. Further, the number of "points of contact" is irrelevant.......you have a point of contact to mitigate recoil with every finger on both hands.

as far as department training.......that really doesnt make much of an argument...

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Note that wasn't my only reference..........I said: "I don't know of a single firearms instructor, police department, federal LE agency or any military that teaches such an antiquated technique."..........that makes a HUGE argument. If professional instructors have abandoned the trigger guard grip, who other than yourself, still teaches it?

...hell, for years, people were taught isosceles stance.....then everyone determined that isosceles sucked, and we all needed to learn Weaver......now weve all kind of determined that weaver sucks more than isosceles and weve all gone back to that.....and in some cases not even bothering to teach stance at all....

Click to expand...

And that doesn't prove your point, but confirms mine. NOBODY teaches the trigger guard grip.

ive found in the majority of cases.....the training "of the day" is based on whatever is cool and trendy, and in many cases, what looks cool...........not necessarily on what is most effective.

Click to expand...

The majority of cases? Again, who's teaching these cool and trendy grip techniques that are not effective? And are any of them teaching the trigger guard grip?

and a lot of the time is goes unquestioned......hell, some high level trainer will do something....and everyone else will just start teaching that, because "thats how they were taught" or "thats how they do it at XXXXX"......with little to no thought as to why....

Click to expand...

Ever stop to think you just described the trigger guard grip phase of the '70's?
It's 2016 man, forty years worth of better ways to hold a handgun than by wrapping a finger around a trigger guard.

guzzi I think the young man is working to emulate a well know expert.

For those who think the finger on the front of the trigger guard on a pistol is wrong, jump to 11:35 on the video.

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And note that in the second scene in that video he shoots the handgun upside down.

Familiarity with different techniques is the mark of a great teacher.

A few people manage to make the trigger guard grip effective. They all have fingers long enough to reach the trigger guard, though, and none of them that I know of put TWO fingers on the guard as per the CZ video.

But IIUC, the shooter was 13! At 13, everyone's technique sucks. Not just at shooting... at pretty much everything!

I'd also add that there's lots and lots of dogma in shooting about what is good and what isn't. Part of what is great about competition is that stuff gets objectively measured and subjected to a crucible of pressure and competition. Stuff that wins gets popular.

Oh, one other note. If anyone ever asks what a flinch (pre-ignition push) looks like, these videos show one quite convincingly.

I suspect the lower bore access of the CZ is contributing to the "felt recoil" relative to the Glock despite the increased weight. With a less firm grip you're going to experience more perceived recoil anyways, and with a lower bore access it's going to flip less and impact your hands more. I have tried a couple of grip techniques and I have finally settled on both eyes open thumbs forward grip. I think you should have him experiment with a couple of different stance and grip techniques so he can find the one that works best for him, as I suspect his grip was the largest factor in his shooting.

Great videos by the way, would love to see more firearms and more shooting. Slow motion video is very fun to watch, especially for firearms.

..hell, for years, people were taught isosceles stance.....then everyone determined that isosceles sucked, and we all needed to learn Weaver.....

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Hmm. I thought it was the other way around. About the only place you see the Weaver stance used, nowadays, is at the range, punching holes in paper targets. Try that grip and stance in a gun game and you;kk find yourself trying to do things you can't really do well with Weaver -- like shooting from the prone position, around the off-hand side of a barricade, from a kneeling position, or firing while in a crouch while trying to stay low. The shooter's flexibility is somewhat impaired, too.

An acquaintance who has spent several years working as a civilian instructor with Special Ops troop at Ft. Bragg, says they use a modified Isosceles stance with both handguns and long guns. And they do NOT teach finger on the the front of the finger guard, or sling-shot slide releases.

Many of the revisions to military training over the past decade came as the result of hard-learned lessons and experiences in Afghanistan and Iraq...

Remember...shooter is 13 yrs old. Hand/wrist strength and size play heavy in ability to control recoil. Maturity plays into this as well. He will grow into a shooter soon seein' as how he is already at the line. Be fun to see him shoot in five years with some coaching and practice!

I just like seeing slo-mo of guns fired! muzzle blast, recoil, re-set...just cool to see it slow. More fun to feel it "real time"!

Mark

The only reason Glock squared off his trigger guard was because it was a fad in the late '70's early '80's for 1911 custom shops to checker or stipple the front of the trigger guard.

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Unless you have something that supports that, its malarkey.

Glock dosent do ANYthing for style points being the "only" reason.

When Glock came out, it was about the furthest thing from a custom shop 1911 in the gun world.


They were going after military contracts. The last thing they were trying to emulate was anything coming out of any custom shop.

I didn't read the other posts but I have both . I love the CZ pistols. They ROCK ! But I also have Glock pistols and they ROCK too. Due to the low number of parts in the Glock I would choose the Glock in a battle or self defense situation. I have detailed stripped a CZ 75 and there are TOO MANY parts that can go wrong and just too many moving parts to rely on as a self defense gun .