So much for "9mm is plenty."

My understanding is NYPD uses G19. I'd have to guess an exceedingly rare bad lot from Speer, or more probable the rounds from one officer's gun got damaged with over oiling, I really don't know.

RecoilRob said:

I could picture an off center hit that strikes a pocket or other place where multiple layers might be stacked together catching the round enough that it then glances off the body and is retained in the material. NO WAY a straight on shot got stopped...would have to see that to believe it.

They didn't say what weapon/s were used...maybe very short barrels that decreased the MV a lot? Anyone know what bullets and weight they use in NYC?

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Pretty much yes.

An arm in front of a torso could mean the bullet sees jacket, shirt, skin, tissue/bone, skin, shirt, jacket, jacket, shirt, skin, tissue/bone, shirt, jacket...in that order. And that is assuming only one shirt under the jacket.

People far too often think of bullet impacts solely from the perspective of a full size adult standing upright motionless with arms at their sides facing their chest right at the shooter. That's not really how the real world works.

That's it! From now on we do our gel tests with Carhart instead of denim!

This jives with the urban legend that Carhartt is Banger Ballistic vest. or is it just Magic bullet failure?

We seem to be putting an awful lot of faith, and assuming an awful lot of relevant knowledge and accurate reporting, from a new york media outlet and a law enforcement spokesperson...considering, well, how much faith these sources generally earn.

X-Rap said:

Bad thing about this and most other gun related reporting is that the follow up never seems to come, of course it's the same with other stories that run counter to the agenda, "nothing to see here folks, move along".

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What do you mean? This is great news. We can stop trying to ban guns now, since clearly they aren't nearly as dangerous as believed.

The article mentioned several times a potential weapon defect, but what would it be? The weapon(s) fed and fired the rounds obviously, and it's not the weapon's fault if the rounds don't penetrate. So what would the weapon malfunction be?

lpsharp88 said:

The article mentioned several times a potential weapon defect, but what would it be? The weapon(s) fed and fired the rounds obviously, and it's not the weapon's fault if the rounds don't penetrate. So what would the weapon malfunction be?

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I'm thinking the most likely answer is penetration through something significant, such as the guy who was shot, or an intermediate barrier, or whatever, and it just so happens that the bullet(s) came to stop in or against the jacket.

I can't think of a weapon malfunction that would answer this, and let's say it was weak ammo or .380 loaded instead, or whatever, I don't think it would cycle.

Just the weapons expert blathering to a reporter willing to write what they're told.
He could have said the disgronificator malfunctioned and it would have been reported.

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The article mentioned several times a potential weapon defect, but what would it be? The weapon(s) fed and fired the rounds obviously, and it's not the weapon's fault if the rounds don't penetrate. So what would the weapon malfunction be?

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it leaked?

I would say it is anyone's guess as to what the "more" is, but there is definitely more to the story.

This is why they carry a magazine with more than one bullet in it.

Needs more 357Sig.

Buds gun shop,police sigs p229, with Three mags,around 399

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My Carrhart jacket shell is a tough nylon, maybe Cordura or similar.

It could be possible to have up to 5 layers of the heavy nylon, plus three layers of the insulation, plus several layers of whatever garment is worn under the jacket.

I'm thinking (1) in sleeve, (2) out sleeve, (3) through handwarmer pocket, (4) through main shell, (5) through interior pocket.

Still hard to imagine a 9mm 124gr +P not sailing through that. Maybe hollow point plugged, but still penetrating.

Well, this report pretty much solves the caliber debate. NYPD has it's stuff together. Can't deny their authoritative position here.
I think that article on the shooting has some facts really wrong on this one. If the bad guy is lying in the street, how is the jacket a 9MM stopper?

HP's for the warm months, FMJ's for the cold months.

9mm not being enough...

Well this article says nothing about, distances from perp, the type of rounds used in the officers gun... etc. etc. And I heard a story of a women who shot a man with a subby .38spl 5 times, all hits, and the man (not on drugs) still lived, so it depends, on the situation the wind could have caused the bullets not to be as effective etc. And there are plenty of instances where 9mm has been enough.

I call BS that a Carhartt jacket stopped a 9mm (much less 4 of them) but cycled the slide. There have to be major factors not mentioned (such as it first passed through his forearm etc).

The HP plugging would just increase penetration so no dice there either. Sadly, I bet we'll never know the real story, the news isn't going to follow up. Maybe we'll get the truth post-investigation from a LE article or source in a few months from now. If a jacket actually stopped something like a 9mm 124g +P Gold Dot that would be a big deal and make a splash, but I bet we'll not hear of it because a reasonable explanation will render it a non-issue.

This is why it used to be common to load alternating ball and hollow point rounds in a magazine (or cylinder?).

Andy

Sources said the incident does not appear to be a pattern, but the 9mm guns used by the officers are going to be checked for malfunctions.

“There would have to be some kind of defect. I would certainly look at the ammunition.”

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So apparently they are going to check the guns for malfunctions, meanwhile someone else will look at the ammo.

It's still troubling that police agencies will send their officers out with what EVERY expert considers the 'minimum acceptable round' for stopping an assailant. I am NOT saying it is necessarily inadequate, only that it is considered the minimum duty round. I guess it solves a lot of headaches for the administrators; it's cheap and even the ladies can handle the recoil.

I don't think 9mm has ever been more popular than it is right now (in the US anyway), which is driven by a number of factors. Nevertheless, I'm unable to trust the 9mm, and the recoil from .357sig or en .45acp isn't so bad as to make me change.

I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but I wonder if there is some fluffing going on to help balance out public perception that a blm guy with a knife was shot 9 times.

Some politically connected supplier charged them for Gold Dots but really they were Silvertips coated with Testors paint.

danez71 said:

I'm not a conspiracy theory guy but I wonder if there is some fluffing going on to help balance out public perception that a blm guy with a knife was shot 9 times.

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Now that would be an interesting PR stunt; Hey we may have shot AT him 9 times but we only actually hit him with 4.

Defective ammo= a compassionate Police force.

For attackers wearing a Carhartt jacket:
357 Sig 125 gr. Gold Dot.
10mm Hornady 155 gr. XTP

HP's for the warm months, FMJ's for the cold months.

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Why? The problem with older generations of hollowpoints was they clogged up and didnt expand, and shoot through more like a full jacket. Whats the loss over a full jacket load? Using a full jacketed bullet you know right off it wont expand, with no chance it would as if using a hollowpoint. Why choose the worst performing round on purpose?

This is why it used to be common to load alternating ball and hollow point rounds in a magazine (or cylinder?).

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How would that be an improvement? After starting shooting, at any given moment, you wouldnt know which was up, and whatever its special purpose was would be lost.