Squib loads in 38 Special

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CraigS

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Hello All,

I'm a relatively new reloader and having a problem with squib loads while trying to load a very light 38 Special load.

Following Lyman's 49th, I loaded a Berry's 125 grain JFP and 2.8 grains of 700X. The powder was measured on a Redding beam scale, which I first checked with a scale check weight set. I used CCI 500 primers and Federal cases. I loaded twelve rounds and decided to test those before loading any more. In the first four rounds, I got two squibs where the bullet failed to exit the 2" barrel.

I decided to pull the remaining bullets and noticed that some where more difficult, which I'm assuming means that they were crimped harder. I will admit to making adjustments to the seating/crimp die as I loaded those rounds.

What is causing these squibs? Too much crimp? Too little crimp?

To add to the confusion, these .357 JFPs do not have a cannelure, although they clearly state "38 Cal (.357)" on the box. So, I'm also unclear as to how my crimp die is supposed to do a roll crimp.

Thanks in advance for any help or suggestions.

Craig
 
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Berry's are not jacketed, but plated, thus the no cannelure. I doubt it's too little of crimp unless the squibs were from cartridges where the bullet jumped from recoil. Doubt if that would happen with a start load of 700X. Up your charge, you can't roll crimp into a plated bullet with no cannelure, just adjust your dies to take out the flare. Flare your cases as little as possible, just to get the bullet started to help with neck tension. Too much flare is worse than not enough crimp.....at least in a revolver.
 
I looked on line at Hodgdon's site and found your load of 700x below recommended starting level. For K.I.S.S. sake I load plated bullets with lead bullet data and the bottom recommended Hodgdon load is 3.6 gr for lead and 3.7 for jacketed. Go up to the minimum. Eight tenths (.8) of a grain will make a difference...

Normally, a non cannalure/crimp groove bullet is taper crimped, but if push comes to shove you can lightly roll crimp it (not enough to damage/distort/crimp the bullet), just enough to remove the flare. Neck tension of a properly sized case and bullet (.357" min.) will keep most bullets in place under mild recoil.

I'd suggest you get some dedicated revolver bullets, with cannalure or crimp groove and put away the smooth sided bullets until you have a bit more experience with crimping variations/reasons.
 
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Weigh your powder, all of it, until you get more experience.

2.8 grains of 700X will NOT give you any squib loads if you actually have 2.8g in the case! I use a lot of 700X and really love it in the .38, but as a large flake powder, not all powder measures deal with it well, especially in light loads. And if you do not have good loading technique, you may see problems in measuring anything below about 4.0 grains. I actually get very consistent throw weights of 700X with my Lee Auto Disk measures down to about 2.5 grains, but many people do not.

For light .38 loads, you should not be using any crimp. Set up your expander die to just barely flair the case mouth so the bullet will just sit in it without falling over, but no more - the flair should be almost impossible to notice by looking a the case. Adjust your seating/crimping die to just smooth out that minor flair, but not crimp. This is not critical, and a small roll crimp isn't going to hurt anything, but avoid anything more.

As to the last question, a standard .38 Spl seating die is shaped internally with a lip that contacts the case mouth when adjusted low enough, and will produce a roll crimp that gets more intense as the die is adjusted deeper. For those light target loads you are doing, you want to adjust the die just to the point when you can feel it touch an expanded case without a bullet in it.

You REALLY need to get and read a decent manual, such as Lee's Modern Reloading - then you would understand these things.
 
Buck pretty much covered it. That is a very light load, I would step up to atleast 3.5gr to reliably and consistently clear the barrel. My favorite light 38 load using 700x(not my favorite because it meters poorly) is a coated 105gr lswc with 4.7gr 700x.
 
Were these loads all hand weighed, or dropped with a powder measure? If using a powder measure I'll bet you didn't have 2.8 grains in some of them. 700x can be quite difficult to meter in quantities that small.
 
buck460XVR said:
Berry's are not jacketed, but plated, thus the no cannelure. I doubt it's too little of crimp unless the squibs were from cartridges where the bullet jumped from recoil. Doubt if that would happen with a start load of 700X. Up your charge, you can't roll crimp into a plated bullet with no cannelure, just adjust your dies to take out the flare. Flare your cases as little as possible, just to get the bullet started to help with neck tension. Too much flare is worse than not enough crimp.....at least in a revolver.
Click to expand...
Thanks for that clarification of plated and jacketed. I'll try increasing the charge, which I had already considered. I was just trusting the data in Lyman's 49th and figured the problem was with my loading procedure.
 
Yes, you can and SHOULD trust the data from your Lyman manual. 2.8g 700X is a fine starting load with a 125g JHP, so it would be just wonderful with a plated soft point of the same weight (especially in a dinky 2" barrel). Your problems are a combination of improperly weighed powder (i.e. inconsistent charges), and incorrect crimp settings.

As a new reloader, EVERY SINGLE CHARGE should be measured with a decent scale. Trusting any powder measure is NOT acceptable until you understand more about what you are doing.
 
mdi said:
I looked on line at Hodgdon's site and found your load of 700x below recommended starting level. For K.I.S.S. sake I load plated bullets with lead bullet data and the bottom recommended Hodgdon load is 3.6 gr for lead and 3.7 for jacketed. Go up to the minimum. Eight tenths (.8) of a grain will make a difference...

Normally, a non cannalure/crimp groove bullet is taper crimped, but if push comes to shove you can lightly roll crimp it (not enough to damage/distort/crimp the bullet), just enough to remove the flare. Neck tension of a properly sized case and bullet (.357" min.) will keep most bullets in place under mild recoil.

I'd suggest you get some dedicated revolver bullets, with cannalure or crimp groove and put away the smooth sided bullets until you have a bit more experience with crimping variations/reasons.
Click to expand...
It is interesting (and a little frustrating) that different manufacturers list different starting levels for loads.

I do have some MBC 125 grain coated .358 RNFP (Cowboy #17 Hi-Tek). I didn't use them because the Lyman manual doesn't list a load with a 125 grain lead bullet. It lists a load for a 120 grain lead bullet and a 125 grain jacketed bullet. Can I use one of these loads with the 125 RNFPs? Maybe with some adjustment?

Thanks for the help...
 
Basically everything has been covered in the responses so far. Again, for light loads in a revolver using plated or coated bullets a taper crimp is acceptable. As mentioned your using enough powder to send a bullet downrange so the problem is not your crimp, however this is not to say you cannot improve on your crimp methods.

Others have suggested weighing your powder charges and this is a good idea. You could load your powder measure with powder and run say 20 pcs of brass through and measure each one and note the weights. Once you get consistent weights you can then just do spot checks. I might add make sure your powder measure is clean of any oils/grease, burrs and is running smoothly.
 
Mauser69 said:
Weigh your powder, all of it, until you get more experience.

2.8 grains of 700X will NOT give you any squib loads if you actually have 2.8g in the case! I use a lot of 700X and really love it in the .38, but as a large flake powder, not all powder measures deal with it well, especially in light loads. And if you do not have good loading technique, you may see problems in measuring anything below about 4.0 grains. I actually get very consistent throw weights of 700X with my Lee Auto Disk measures down to about 2.5 grains, but many people do not.

For light .38 loads, you should not be using any crimp. Set up your expander die to just barely flair the case mouth so the bullet will just sit in it without falling over, but no more - the flair should be almost impossible to notice by looking a the case. Adjust your seating/crimping die to just smooth out that minor flair, but not crimp. This is not critical, and a small roll crimp isn't going to hurt anything, but avoid anything more.

As to the last question, a standard .38 Spl seating die is shaped internally with a lip that contacts the case mouth when adjusted low enough, and will produce a roll crimp that gets more intense as the die is adjusted deeper. For those light target loads you are doing, you want to adjust the die just to the point when you can feel it touch an expanded case without a bullet in it.

You REALLY need to get and read a decent manual, such as Lee's Modern Reloading - then you would understand these things.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the explanation on the proper amount of flare and the proper crimp. I will try that.

I actually did weigh each charge on a Redding beam scale that I first checked with a scale check weight set. I should have been more clear in my original post, so I just edited it with that information.
 
Reefinmike said:
Buck pretty much covered it. That is a very light load, I would step up to atleast 3.5gr to reliably and consistently clear the barrel. My favorite light 38 load using 700x(not my favorite because it meters poorly) is a coated 105gr lswc with 4.7gr 700x.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply. I may increase the powder charge a little. But I also want to make sure my loading technique is completely correct and that I understand the mistakes that I must have made to cause the squibs.
 
ljnowell said:
Were these loads all hand weighed, or dropped with a powder measure? If using a powder measure I'll bet you didn't have 2.8 grains in some of them. 700x can be quite difficult to meter in quantities that small.
Click to expand...
These loads were all hand weighed on a Redding beam scale (previously checked with weight set). I apologize for not being clearer in my original post. Others have asked if I used a powder measure as well. I edited my post so as to clarify my weighing procedure.

Thanks for the reply.
 
Got a chronograph? I wish I could have had one when I started.

If you have a hundred or hundred and fifty dollars you can invest, a chronograph will tell you volumes of information.

I opine that if you had clocked your loads, your velocities would have been very low on the ones that actually exited your barrel and wildly inconsistent. If you don't have velocities that are consistently within 10% of each other (70 fps on a 700 fps load) there is something TERRIBLY wrongt. Velocity ranges typically stay within 3% of the average (in my experience).

When I started loading, I looked into chrongraphs, but they were very expensive and used paper screens with wires embedded in them. Nowadays, they are much more affodable and I really enjoy using mine. A little for the science and a lot for just idle curiosity. But I found it well worth it.

Do you have an interest in ultra-low velocity loads? Or were you just following the advice we all get, to start low and work up? A chronograph will help with both of these, the former more vitally.

Thanks for asking our advice and welcome to the forum and to reloading.

Lost Sheep
 
Lost Sheep said:
If you have a hundred or hundred and fifty dollars you can invest, a chronograph will tell you volumes of information.

I opine that if you had clocked your loads, your velocities would have been very low on the ones that actually exited your barrel and wildly inconsistent. If you don't have velocities that are consistently within 10% of each other (70 fps on a 700 fps load) there is something TERRIBLY wrongt. Velocity ranges typically stay within 3% of the average (in my experience).

When I started loading, I looked into chrongraphs, but they were very expensive and used paper screens with wires embedded in them. Nowadays, they are much more affodable and I really enjoy using mine. A little for the science and a lot for just idle curiosity. But I found it well worth it.

Do you have an interest in ultra-low velocity loads? Or were you just following the advice we all get, to start low and work up? A chronograph will help with both of these, the former more vitally.

Thanks for asking our advice and welcome to the forum and to reloading.

Lost Sheep
Click to expand...
I would like to get a chronograph at some point, as I am also curious about the actual velocities I'm producing.

My interest in light loads is mainly to encourage my wife to shoot more. She enjoys shooting, but would appreciate a lighter load.

Thanks.
 
CraigS said:
These loads were all hand weighed on a Redding beam scale (previously checked with weight set). I apologize for not being clearer in my original post. Others have asked if I used a powder measure as well. I edited my post so as to clarify my weighing procedure.

Thanks for the reply.
Click to expand...
That statement is cause for MAJOR worry! As I have stated before, 2.8g 700X is absolutely enough to avoid any and all squib loads in .38 Spl with a 125 gr bullet, and is in fact a published starting load. If you actually weighed each load and know for certain that each case had 2.8gr 700X, then you have something major wrong that you do not understand. Under those circumstances, increasing the powder charge for a bigger boom is nothing but foolhardy.

Did the four rounds you tested all go "boom" with the same sound? Or did the two squibs seem more of a "pop" than a boom? A 2" barrel is so short that I would have expected almost anything to at least push the bullet far enough to drop at your feet! But a primer alone would have enough power to get that bullet stuck.

If they all had at least some powder and went "boom", then the most likely cause is improper technique with your scale due to your inexperience. To check that, I would set out at least 20 sized and primed cases in a loading block, then charge them sequentially, weighing each charge. After they have all been charged and inspected with a flash light, I would move the scale (anywhere), re-zero the scale, then re-set it for the expected charge weight, then re-weigh EACH charge to verify they are all exactly what you expected.

After you have followed that procedure, then each case can have a bullet seated with just a hint of crimp. I have no way of knowing just how magilla you got on some of your first wild crimps, so making sure you do it right this time is important. I do not believe even a wild crimp could have caused your squib loads, but then again, I have never tried to do that as a test.

Your finished light loads should not show any visible roll crimp or flare on the end of the case mouth, and you should not be able to push the bullet further into the case by pushing it with your hand against your bench (push hard, but do not beat it) - this will indicate proper neck tension on the bullet, which is plenty for such a light target load.

As a final test, consider marking around the case mouth on the bullets with a black marker. When you fire the first cylinder of these test loads, stop before the last one and remove the shell for inspection. That bullet should not have moved at all (as evidenced by the black line at the case mouth still being visible without any ring of shiny copper between it and the case).
 
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^^^ very good advice

You are using top quality gear. I'm not able to comment on Redding dies except to say they are good. What I don't know is are you using a roll crimp or taper crimp die? For what you are doing (light loads with plated bullets) a taper crimp is what you want.
 
Mauser69 said:
That statement is cause for MAJOR worry! As I have stated before, 2.8g 700X is absolutely enough to avoid any and all squib loads in .38 Spl with a 125 gr bullet, and is in fact a published starting load. If you actually weighed each load and know for certain that each case had 2.8gr 700X, then you have something major wrong that you do not understand. Under those circumstances, increasing the powder charge for a bigger boom is nothing but foolhardy.

Did the four rounds you tested all go "boom" with the same sound? Or did the two squibs seem more of a "pop" than a boom? A 2" barrel is so short that I would have expected almost anything to at least push the bullet far enough to drop at your feet! But a primer alone would have enough power to get that bullet stuck.

If they all had at least some powder and went "boom", then the most likely cause is improper technique with your scale due to your inexperience. To check that, I would set out at least 20 sized and primed cases in a loading block, then charge them sequentially, weighing each charge. After they have all been charged and inspected with a flash light, I would move the scale (anywhere), re-zero the scale, then re-set it for the expected charge weight, then re-weigh EACH charge to verify they are all exactly what you expected.

After you have followed that procedure, then each case can have a bullet seated with just a hint of crimp. I have no way of knowing just how magilla you got on some of your first wild crimps, so making sure you do it right this time is important. I do not believe even a wild crimp could have caused your squib loads, but then again, I have never tried to do that as a test.

Your finished light loads should not show any visible roll crimp or flare on the end of the case mouth, and you should not be able to push the bullet further into the case by pushing it with your hand against your bench (push hard, but do not beat it) - this will indicate proper neck tension on the bullet, which is plenty for such a light target load.

As a final test, consider marking around the case mouth on the bullets with a black marker. When you fire the first cylinder of these test loads, stop before the last one and remove the shell for inspection. That bullet should not have moved at all (as evidenced by the black line at the case mouth still being visible without any ring of shiny copper between it and the case).
Click to expand...
Thank you for the advice and suggestions. I will try charging some cases, then moving & rezeroing the scale, and checking them again. It just occurred to me that the scale was sitting on one of those thin neoprene mats that have parts diagrams of firearms on them. Perhaps that caused some issue with the scale. I didn't think it would have been a problem since I checked the scale with a Lyman scale check weight set.

The two squibs were immediately noticeable. Although new to reloading, I'm an experienced shooter so I recognized them and didn't attempt to fire another round.

I'll let you know how it goes...
 
thomas15 said:
^^^ very good advice

You are using top quality gear. I'm not able to comment on Redding dies except to say they are good. What I don't know is are you using a roll crimp or taper crimp die? For what you are doing (light loads with plated bullets) a taper crimp is what you want.
Click to expand...
I believe that the Redding dies for 38 Special/357 Magnum have a roll crimp. Someone please correct that if it is incorrect.
 
Use the data from the Hodgdon site. They show that 4.2 gr of 700x is a 16,000 to 17,000 psi load with a 125 gr lead or jacketed bullet. That is not a hot load, and is completely safe in any functional 38 special revolver.
Get used to standard loads, then, if you want to try extra-light, get some lead bullets.
 
I think you are just loading them too light. Bump it up to 3.6-3.7 gr and see what difference that will make. My favorite bullet in that caliber is the 125 LRN coated you have on hand, but I prefer CFE-Pistol under it. 5.6 gr of that is a great shooter in all my little snubbies. Shoots great, but doesn't hurt.
 
I'm not an expert handloader by any means but I have sucessfully loaded 38 with light powder loads and plated bullets using a very light roll crimp. For the past 9 months I have been using a Dillon 38 crimp die which is basically a taper crimp.

I do believe that you should get the tools you have working with your components it will just take some time and experimentation. I have been goofing around trying to come up with a light load for my wife who uses a S&W Airweight J-frame. First let me say that I shoot S&W L&N frames using soft target loads, but for my wife I'm trying to take a different approach. Where I'm at right now with it is using a 110g JHP Hornady XTP with something like 3.0g Hodgdon Clays powder. I haven't nailed it down yet. I tried a number of 115-147g plated bullets but couldn't get what I'm looking for so I went to the JHPs. Hopefully it's there somewhere.
 
One other thought, I use both Hornady and RCBS powder measures which are similar to your Redding by the appearance. With mine they have small cavity handgun rotor drums for measuring small amounts of powder. The default large rotor is for rifle. If Redding has a similar feature are you using a pistol rotor?
 
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