Squib loads in 38 Special

Status
Not open for further replies.
For less recoil, if you can find some lighter bullets (which will get a slightly heavier powder charge) would be the way to go.

No one has mentioned the case volume and powder position. Do a search on "powder position", either on this forum or the entire internet. Here is one spot

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/powder-position.htm

Some people go to the extent of using a case filler to keep the powder near the primer when loading small amounts of powder in large cases (and .38 Special is classed as large). .38 Special started out in the black powder era, so for high-energy-density smokeless powders, it is large.

Lost Sheep
 
Definitely watch out for position sensitive powders. Autocomp was very sensitive in my loads. Powder worked good in 9mm, but not 38 special. 231 is a lot of peoples favorite in 38 special and was mine until I tried the CFE-Pistol.
 
One of my revolvers is a S&W 642 airweight. I've shot as many as 200 of the 125gr LRN coated over 5.6gr CFE-Pistol and did not come home with a sore hand. I had actually quit shooting this gun until discovering this powder. I thoroughly enjoy shooting, but don't enjoy pain. If I want thump, then I bring out a magnum.
 
Lost Sheep said:
For less recoil, if you can find some lighter bullets (which will get a slightly heavier powder charge) would be the way to go.

No one has mentioned the case volume and powder position. Do a search on "powder position", either on this forum or the entire internet. Here is one spot

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/powder-position.htm

Some people go to the extent of using a case filler to keep the powder near the primer when loading small amounts of powder in large cases (and .38 Special is classed as large). .38 Special started out in the black powder era, so for high-energy-density smokeless powders, it is large.

Lost Sheep
Click to expand...
First of all, thanks to all who replied and offered suggestions. Here is an update:

I confirmed that my scale was zeroed and checked it again with the weight set. I then charged eight cases with between 2.80 and 2.85 grains of 700X. I moved my scale to a different area and reconfirmed zero. Then, one at a time, I dumped each case's powder charge onto the scale's pan and confirmed the same weight as before. The powder was put back into the case and examined under bright light before seating and crimping a Berry's 125 grain plated flat point. The amount of crimp followed Mauser69's advice, and was therefore light.

Seven of these eight fired fine from a 3" barrel. The eighth round lodged about half way down the 3" barrel.

I am absolutely certain that each case contained the correct amount (if we assume that Lyman's starting load of 2.8 grains is correct) of powder. Bullet, primer, and case were all the same for the first four as well as these eight.

I am starting to suspect that powder position may be the culprit. I find it interesting that only the Lyman 49th believes that 2.8 grains is a proper starting load. Hodgdon and Lee both quote 3.6 grains as a starting load. That is a fairly significant difference. Perhaps 2.8 grains is enough powder if it's positioned well enough in the case.

Thoughts?
 
How old is the Hi Skor 700-X?

Also, your original post mentioned a 2 inch barrel but the last one mentioned a 3 inch barrel. Is this just a typo or did you switch guns?

If you did switch guns, why? When diagnosing a problem, the more variables that you introduce, the harder it becomes to resolve.
 
^^^maybe the powder is compromised as insinuated above. Perhaps your primers are not working correctly however I doubt that since there is enough pressure to start the bullet down the barrel.

At this point I would try a different powder. That is the best explanation for the situation. Again, you are using more than enough powder to get the bullet out of the barrel.
 
hdwhit said:
How old is the Hi Skor 700-X?

Also, your original post mentioned a 2 inch barrel but the last one mentioned a 3 inch barrel. Is this just a typo or did you switch guns?

If you did switch guns, why? When diagnosing a problem, the more variables that you introduce, the harder it becomes to resolve.
Click to expand...
Although I can't remember exactly when I bought the 700X, I believe it would have been within the last couple of years. However, I just opened it for the first time yesterday.

Good catch on the different barrel lengths, and I agree with you about minimizing variables. The first revolver was a Detective Special. I must have somehow stressed the crane when I removed one of the stuck bullets. I had to switch to a S&W 65.

Speaking of removing stuck bullets, what is the best method? A cursory internet/YouTube search only addresses squibs where the bullet just barely leaves the case and is easily tapped back out. My squibs had powder charges that lodged the bullet almost 2" down the barrel. I can't find any tools on Midway or Brownells that are made for the purpose. I would like a 4" solid brass rod of .25 to .30 diameter.
 
thomas15 said:
^^^maybe the powder is compromised as insinuated above. Perhaps your primers are not working correctly however I doubt that since there is enough pressure to start the bullet down the barrel.

At this point I would try a different powder. That is the best explanation for the situation. Again, you are using more than enough powder to get the bullet out of the barrel.
Click to expand...
Thanks...and I do have other powders that I could use. But I also want to understand what is going on here. I have yet to figure out why Lyman has a starting load that is roughly 22% lower than what Lee and Hodgdon recommend. I'm beginning to think that Lee and Hodgdon know something that Lyman doesn't, like the fact that 2.8 grains of 700X will leave a bullet in your barrel about 25% of the time (at least in this limited sample size).
 
Last edited:
That's pretty light, regardless of the start load in a book.

4.0 Grs and a Ranier 148 gr WC gave me 794 FPS from a 6" 14-4 with a slow barrel.

4.5 Grs and a Ranier 125 Gr RNFP gave me 852 FPS from the same gun.

4.3 Grs and a Ranier 140 Gr RNFP gave me 796 FPS from the same gun.

What kind of velocity dd you expect or were looking for?

700X is fairly decent when it comes to case position, assuming a reasonable pressure. I used to shoot a lot of 700X in .38 Spl, mostly with lead though.
 
Adding to the advice already given, make sure you have good bullet tension in the case. A bullet not tight in the case can and does cause squibs and .38 Special is notorious for this. Combo .38/357 sizing dies sometimes does not size thinner .38 brass enough to grip bullets tight. Try pushing the bullet deeper into the case with your thumb or push the loaded bullet against your bench. If it moves deeper into the case you have to do whatever it takes to tighten bullet grip.
 
Walkalong said:
That's pretty light, regardless of the start load in a book.

4.0 Grs and a Ranier 148 gr WC gave me 794 FPS from a 6" 14-4 with a slow barrel.

4.5 Grs and a Ranier 125 Gr RNFP gave me 852 FPS from the same gun.

4.3 Grs and a Ranier 140 Gr RNFP gave me 796 FPS from the same gun.

What kind of velocity dd you expect or were looking for?

700X is fairly decent when it comes to case position, assuming a reasonable pressure. I used to shoot a lot of 700X in .38 Spl, mostly with lead though.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the reply and the load data. I was attempting to find the lightest recoiling load in 38 Special, mainly for my wife, but I would shoot it also. Less powder used would also make it a little more economical to load. The lowest pressure load data that I could find was in the Lyman 49th, which states a starting load of 2.8 grains of 700X will yield a velocity of 473 fps from a 4" barrel (8100 CUP).

I still don't know what the problem is. Some posters agree with Lyman that 2.8 grains is sufficient. Other members here advise using more powder, and cite Hodgdon load data to support their position. At this point, I plan to increase the charge weight and chalk up the squibs to powder sensitivity. I remain open to any and all suggestions or theories as to the cause of the squibs.
 
rg1's post #35 advice about testing the bullet retention (tension) is good. It should take (according to Iowegan, a well-respected sretired gunsmith whoe posts are most often usually found on RugerForum.net where he is a moderator) about 50 pounds ro move a bullet in a loaded case.

CraigS said:
Thanks for the reply and the load data. I was attempting to find the lightest recoiling load in 38 Special, mainly for my wife, but I would shoot it also. Less powder used would also make it a little more economical to load. The lowest pressure load data that I could find was in the Lyman 49th, which states a starting load of 2.8 grains of 700X will yield a velocity of 473 fps from a 4" barrel (8100 CUP).

I still don't know what the problem is. Some posters agree with Lyman that 2.8 grains is sufficient. Other members here advise using more powder, and cite Hodgdon load data to support their position. At this point, I plan to increase the charge weight and chalk up the squibs to powder sensitivity. I remain open to any and all suggestions or theories as to the cause of the squibs.
Click to expand...

At this point, I suggest compiling a summary of all you your posts on this threads and a few of the answers you hve rfeceived and sending an inquiry to the powder maker. A two-year old lot of powder freshly opened should be just fine, unless that particular lot of powder was weak, which by now would be well-known.

In any event, they may have some valuable advice and certainly would be interested in the type of behavior you have observed. I see that you are good at documenting, a habit that will serve you (and us, thank you) well.

Now for my blind prejudiced opinion. Any velocities under 700 fps kind of scare me.

Lost Sheep

edit0, P.S. If I wanted to get reliable sub-600 fps velocities, I believe I would invest in slugging my bore and then polishing it. Slugging would reveal any tight spots (most commonly found where the barrel threads into the frame). Polishing the bore (lapping) would reduce friction and more importantly make it uniform over the entire barrel's length.
 
Last edited:
Recoilless practice

For virtually recoilless shooting, primer-only powered target shooting is available.

Speer makes plastic cases and bullets for primer-powered only practice.

You can shoot wax bullets also (powered by primers only). Do a search. You drill out the primer flash hole so your primers don't back out and tie up your revolver/ Melt some was in a shallow pan to a depth that matches a regular bullet length, then press sized case mouths into the warm wax. Then prime the cases and you are ready to shoot. Caveat: These are not as deadly as live ammunition, but can cause severe wounds and damage (I have seen pictures of a steel door with a substantial dent from one.)

Some peiople drill out their cases to accept shotgun primers which give more oompf.

Some people cast bullets out of hot glue. If your target backstop is gentle enough, you can recover and re-use the same bullets several times.

Or you could purchase a 33 Rimfire gun that has the same action type and
"hand feel" as your centerfire gun. I think the ultimate of this genre is S&W's 22 Jet. It was built on the same "K" frame as the S&W 48 specials, the Model 19 .367 magnum and with inserts the 22 Jet chambers would fire 22 rimfire (and if they were available, 22 Rimfire Magnum) ammunition.

Dan Wesson Model 16 and matcvhing 22 rimfire is another (which I own and like). Ruger's SP101 in 322 rimfire, 327 magnum and 357 magnum are other examples.

But the top of the line (in current production) is a pairs of S&W Model 17 and Model 19 guns.

Of course, the ultimate would be Colt's Diamondback, one in .22 and one in .38. Dream on.

(Not the original post, but by reading the thread, spot on to the O.P.'s intent

Good luck

Lost Sheep
 
I then charged eight cases with between 2.80 and 2.85 grains of 700X.

What is this? Your scale measures to the 1/100 of a grain? 2.85? Please take a picture of your scale with the charge weighed. Could it be you are simply misreading the increments on the scale bar? Might be the problem, that you are consistently misreading your scale.
 
rg1 said:
Adding to the advice already given, make sure you have good bullet tension in the case. A bullet not tight in the case can and does cause squibs and .38 Special is notorious for this. Combo .38/357 sizing dies sometimes does not size thinner .38 brass enough to grip bullets tight. Try pushing the bullet deeper into the case with your thumb or push the loaded bullet against your bench. If it moves deeper into the case you have to do whatever it takes to tighten bullet grip.
Click to expand...
I appreciate the reply. Following the earlier advice of Mauser69, I did test the crimp by attempting to push the bullet back into the case against my bench. It survived a fair amount of pressure, so at this point I don't think that the crimp is the problem.
 
Lost Sheep said:
For virtually recoilless shooting, primer-only powered target shooting is available.

Speer makes plastic cases and bullets for primer-powered only practice.

You can shoot wax bullets also (powered by primers only). Do a search. You drill out the primer flash hole so your primers don't back out and tie up your revolver/ Melt some was in a shallow pan to a depth that matches a regular bullet length, then press sized case mouths into the warm wax. Then prime the cases and you are ready to shoot. Caveat: These are not as deadly as live ammunition, but can cause severe wounds and damage (I have seen pictures of a steel door with a substantial dent from one.)

Some peiople drill out their cases to accept shotgun primers which give more oompf.

Some people cast bullets out of hot glue. If your target backstop is gentle enough, you can recover and re-use the same bullets several times.

Or you could purchase a 33 Rimfire gun that has the same action type and
"hand feel" as your centerfire gun. I think the ultimate of this genre is S&W's 22 Jet. It was built on the same "K" frame as the S&W 48 specials, the Model 19 .367 magnum and with inserts the 22 Jet chambers would fire 22 rimfire (and if they were available, 22 Rimfire Magnum) ammunition.

Dan Wesson Model 16 and matcvhing 22 rimfire is another (which I own and like). Ruger's SP101 in 322 rimfire, 327 magnum and 357 magnum are other examples.

But the top of the line (in current production) is a pairs of S&W Model 17 and Model 19 guns.

Of course, the ultimate would be Colt's Diamondback, one in .22 and one in .38. Dream on.

(Not the original post, but by reading the thread, spot on to the O.P.'s intent

Good luck

Lost Sheep
Click to expand...
Those are good ideas, and I have considered some of them. I believe I will use ~3.6 grains and see how the wife likes shooting those. If the recoil is not a problem for her, then that will resolve the issue. If not, I may look into something in .32 caliber.
 
au_prospector said:
What is this? Your scale measures to the 1/100 of a grain? 2.85? Please take a picture of your scale with the charge weighed. Could it be you are simply misreading the increments on the scale bar? Might be the problem, that you are consistently misreading your scale.
Click to expand...
The Redding #2 scale has a graduated plate at the pointer end of the beam that is graduated in one-tenth grain increments, just like the beam is graduated on the right-hand side of the main bearing.

So, I place the small counterpoise on 2.8 grains. I then trickle into the pan until the pointer reads exactly zero, or slightly above zero, but not up to the next graduated line, which would indicate a weight of 2.9 grains. The pointer was at most half way up to the first graduated line, which would then be ~2.85 grains.

Please advise if that is incorrect.
 
Will, I did not contemplate suggesting a new gun in .32 caliber (though that may satisfy your wife well) I was stshinkging 22 and mentioned the Ruger SP101 only because that is in current production.

Still, though it was not my intentions, for a reloader, the SP101 might be an option. However, owning 5 of that model (2 .22 and two .357), I HIGHlLY recommend an extensive trigger tuning. Every one of my SP101s' triggers are terribly heavy. Definitely not a target gun. Heavy trigger pull, minimal sights (except the newest ones).

Let her try shooting one before you buy. I do like mine, but it is a love-hate relationship. My GP-100's and Security Sixes group twice as well as the best of my SP101s.
Caveat Emptor

Lost Sheep
 
au_prospector said:
What is this? Your scale measures to the 1/100 of a grain? 2.85? Might be the problem, that you are consistently misreading your scale.
Click to expand...
Likely the weight he had in the pan was in between 2.8 and 2.9 so he just called it 2.85 like I often do when loading hand weighed charges and writing down load data. Many times I will let 1/20th of a grain over target weight slide. I feel that Op has enough know how to properly operate a scale and also believe that it is possible to have a load that has some squibs with identical powder charges. I know we are all trying to be helpful here, but OP is getting his experience history poked and prodded at a bit too much IMO. I don't see anything in his postings that would indicate he hasn't picked up a manual. Maybe, just maybe Lyman has listed a load that is too light for OP's gun. There are many factors that could make a load reliable in one revolver and a squib factory in another gun. Cylinder gap, bore diameter, bore wear, etc etc. Simple fact is he needs more powder to reliably get the bullet out the bore. Anyone who is loading this 2.8gr 700x load, have you sent any over a chrony? Im curious if there is a significant velocity spread???
 
CraigS said:
Those are good ideas, and I have considered some of them. I believe I will use ~3.6 grains and see how the wife likes shooting those. If the recoil is not a problem for her, then that will resolve the issue. If not, I may look into something in .32 caliber.
Click to expand...
Well, I did not contemplate suggesting a new gun in .32 caliber (though that may satisfy your wife well) I was thinking 22 rimfire and mentioned the Ruger SP101 only because that is in current production.

Still, though it was not my intentions, for a reloader, the SP101 .327 might be an excellent option but for one thing - trigger pull. I own 5 of that model (2 .22 and two .357), I HIGHLY recommend an extensive trigger tuning. Every one of my SP101s' triggers are terribly heavy. Definitely not a target gun. Heavy trigger pull, minimal sights (except the newest ones). Twice the group size of my Security Sixes and GP100s.

I recommend she (and yoi, of course) try shooting one before you two buy. I do like mine, but it is a love-hate relationship.

Caveat Emptor

Lost Sheep
 
I looked at all the powders Hodgdon list for 38 special and Trailboss looks to be the lightest shooting of all. Minimum load is 3.0 gr, so not much in weight, but it is a fluffy powder so it will look like more. I have used it and if I recall correctly, it was a powder puff load. Max throw is 5.3, so you have plenty of room to find a good load.

I think your reloading is fine, you just got some questionable data from a manual. I would suggest using those coated LRNFP you have, as I believe you'll be happier with the results. I have used the plated bullets you're using and like the coated ones much better. I haven't used the powder you're using, but do know some powders work much better with heavier bullets.
 
Anyone who is loading this 2.8gr 700x load, have you sent any over a chrony? Im curious if there is a significant velocity spread???
Click to expand...
I have loaded/shot over a thousand 2.5g 700X loads in .38 Spl - most of them with 148g HBWC bullets where the MAXIMUM load is 2.5g 700X. Zero squibs. Those loads chrono at 660 fps with an average deviation of 21.

I have loaded 2.2g 700X behind the same bullets with mixed results. 2.2g gives 552 fps +/- 14 and shoot very well. The problem, however, is that when I load these with my Lee Auto Disk powder measure, I get large variations in the tiny charges of 700X using a disk cavity of .30cc, including a few squibs. So with my Lee Auto disk, a disk cavity of .34cc, throwing 2.5g 700X is very consistent, but a disk cavity of .30cc throwing 2.2g 700X is unacceptable.

I have never noticed any position sensitivity with 700X, but I have never specifically tested for it either.

Last night I loaded some test rounds with 2.8g 700X (all carefully weighed) and Zero 125g JHP bullets (real jacketed, not plated). I will shoot them later this morning and report those results.
 
I settled on WST or Competition for plated bullets and light loads in .38 Spl or .357 Mag cases. They did the best as far as powder position, and were accurate as well. Lead is different.

I still use more than 2.8 Grs though. Solo 1000 and a 125 Gr plated did very well, better than 700X, but again, at 4.2 Grs (760 FPS from a 6" 14-5), way more than 2.8.

I tried Trail Boss so the case would be full, but it was very erratic with plated.

One way to avoid the problem is simply point the muzzle up before each shot. Lead is also much easier to get a light load with that always exits the barrel.
 
sounds like you are having ignition problems with your powder. try bullseye, or try a different primer.

luck,

murf
 
RPegram said:
I looked at all the powders Hodgdon list for 38 special and Trailboss looks to be the lightest shooting of all. Minimum load is 3.0 gr, so not much in weight, but it is a fluffy powder so it will look like more. I have used it and if I recall correctly, it was a powder puff load. Max throw is 5.3, so you have plenty of room to find a good load.

I think your reloading is fine, you just got some questionable data from a manual. I would suggest using those coated LRNFP you have, as I believe you'll be happier with the results. I have used the plated bullets you're using and like the coated ones much better. I haven't used the powder you're using, but do know some powders work much better with heavier bullets.
Click to expand...
I definitely plan on getting some Trail Boss. I've been looking for some time, but haven't been able to find any yet.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

M
  • Locked
I had a squib today
Replies
20
Views
1K
Walkalong
Walkalong
nick22
  • Locked
CFE in .38 special troubles.
Replies
7
Views
1K
kcofohio
kcofohio
G
  • Locked
Need Help Diagnosing Why I Had a Squib
2
Replies
35
Views
1K
Sarge7402
Sarge7402
blackd24
  • Locked
Reloading 38 Special
2
Replies
38
Views
4K
Crazy Horse
Crazy Horse
N
  • Locked
Squib
Replies
5
Views
429
noylj
N
Back
Top