WHEN Buffalo Bore/Double Tap close, 10mm dead?

SDGlock23 said:

Honestly the 10mm isn't worth it, very little gain for what you pay. It won't do anything a .40 or .45 won't do, but will cost you more money.

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Whether or not the round is worth it depends on the individual and what they want out of it.

It certainly will do things .40 and .45 won't, though.

SDGlock23 said:

Honestly the 10mm isn't worth it, very little gain for what you pay. It won't do anything a .40 or .45 won't do, but will cost you more money.

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That's a bit like saying the .357 won't do anything the 38spl won't do.

If one handloads then the 10 doesn't cost anymore than the two other calibers you mentioned, and is certainly capable of quite a bit more.

SDGlock23 said:

Honestly the 10mm isn't worth it, very little gain for what you pay. It won't do anything a .40 or .45 won't do, but will cost you more money.

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Oh really? Please expand on these thoughts because I'd like to see your proof.

Who ever said that Buffalo Bore/ Double Tap are going under?

That being said, the "big 10" is gonna be around for awhile. Like others have said it is growing in popularity and has a super strong following among those that like it.

dragon813gt said:

Oh really? Please expand on these thoughts because I'd like to see your proof.

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It is only better if the shooter is skilled enough with a handgun to take advantage of flatter trajectory and more power at longer ranges. To most rubes like me it gives zero advantage. I might as well be shooting .45 or .40S&W.

PabloJ said:

It is only better if the shooter is skilled enough with a handgun to take advantage of flatter trajectory and more power at longer ranges. To most rubes like me it gives zero advantage. I might as well be shooting .45 or .40S&W.

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The additional power, if shooting a round that legitimately offers the extra power potential (such as a hot Underwood) is of course there at all ranges, not just longer ranges.

Whether it is worth having is up to the individual's wants/needs/application.

PabloJ said:

It is only better if the shooter is skilled enough with a handgun to take advantage of flatter trajectory and more power at longer ranges. To most rubes like me it gives zero advantage. I might as well be shooting .45 or .40S&W.

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Your lack of skill does not negate the legitimate advantages the cartridge offers. And I'm saying this in a friendly way. I personally carry it for bear protection. It offers more power, at any range, then the two cartridges you mentioned. Wether or not I can hit the target is completely up to me.

Warp said:

Whether or not the round is worth it depends on the individual and what they want out of it.

It certainly will do things .40 and .45 won't, though.

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What does it really give over the .40 or .45? It's about 100 fps faster than the .40 (both loaded warm from similar bbl lengths) so what is that 100 fps "certainly" going to accomplish?

Duvel said:

That's a bit like saying the .357 won't do anything the 38spl won't do.

If one handloads then the 10 doesn't cost anymore than the two other calibers you mentioned, and is certainly capable of quite a bit more.

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Not anything like .357 Mag vs. 38 Special. There are 38 Special specific bullets and .357 Mag specific bullets and by specific I mean designed around intended velocities, not so much with the .400" bullets. The .357 Mag operates at nearly TWICE the pressure of the 38 Special which is why it can have a 400-500 fps advantage. Yes the .357 hold more powder too but the biggest reason for such a gap in velocity is pressure.

The 10mm technically has a higher pressure rating by 2500 PSI, or right about 7% higher. What is that worth? It isn't capable of quite a bit more. For instance, from a G20 I can run a 180gr @ ~1350 fps loaded HOT and the same 180gr from a G22 at ~1250 fps loaded HOT. Does that really qualify as "quite a bit more"?

For what it's worth, I've had a LOT more issues with 10mm brass over the years than .40 brass, makes me think .40 brass is stronger. Oh yeah, unless you can get 10mm brass for free (you can with .40/.45 if you pick it up at the range), buying 10mm brass is costlier than .40/.45.

dragon813gt said:

Oh really? Please expand on these thoughts because I'd like to see your proof.

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Sure, I could expand all day but here's a short graphic.



From a 1" longer barrel (5" 10mm vs 4" .40), the 10mm is about 125-130 fps faster. The 10mm is even loaded to higher pressure and I bring that up because if loaded to similar pressures, that 125-130 fps would be even less and if 1" of barrel were cut to give the 10mm a 4" bbl, that's another 40-50 fps or so.

At absolute best the 10mm has about a 10% velocity advantage over the .40. Of course, the 10mm uses existing .40 designed bullets so pushing those faster doesn't necessarily benefit anything because when pushed too fast (a velocity BTW attainable at upper .40 levels for even the toughest JHP's) they break apart and give less penetration, not more and that's bad.

You can do what you want I guess, but I would personally not be loading a 180gr to go 1250 FPS from a .40. That sounds WAY over max to me.

SDGlock23 said:

Honestly the 10mm isn't worth it, very little gain for what you pay. It won't do anything a .40 or .45 won't do, but will cost you more money.

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No doubt shot placement is worth more than anything But a 10mm is at least par with a .357 and almost double the energy of a 9mm.

That makes the 10mm useful for some hunting applications that the others may not be better suited for.

Anyhoot a 10mm is .357 power in a semi-auto pistol. What the .357 lacks in handgun revolver capacity, the 10mm mor than makes up for.

However many that have a 10mm don't carry it. I for one am fine with a 9mm an i prefer the capacity it brings with it.

Ymmv


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SDGlock23 said:

What does it really give over the .40 or .45? It's about 100 fps faster than the .40 (both loaded warm from similar bbl lengths) so what is that 100 fps "certainly" going to accomplish?



Not anything like .357 Mag vs. 38 Special. There are 38 Special specific bullets and .357 Mag specific bullets and by specific I mean designed around intended velocities, not so much with the .400" bullets. The .357 Mag operates at nearly TWICE the pressure of the 38 Special which is why it can have a 400-500 fps advantage. Yes the .357 hold more powder too but the biggest reason for such a gap in velocity is pressure.

The 10mm technically has a higher pressure rating by 2500 PSI, or right about 7% higher. What is that worth? It isn't capable of quite a bit more. For instance, from a G20 I can run a 180gr @ ~1350 fps loaded HOT and the same 180gr from a G22 at ~1250 fps loaded HOT. Does that really qualify as "quite a bit more"?

For what it's worth, I've had a LOT more issues with 10mm brass over the years than .40 brass, makes me think .40 brass is stronger. Oh yeah, unless you can get 10mm brass for free (you can with .40/.45 if you pick it up at the range), buying 10mm brass is costlier than .40/.45.



Sure, I could expand all day but here's a short graphic.



From a 1" longer barrel (5" 10mm vs 4" .40), the 10mm is about 125-130 fps faster. The 10mm is even loaded to higher pressure and I bring that up because if loaded to similar pressures, that 125-130 fps would be even less and if 1" of barrel were cut to give the 10mm a 4" bbl, that's another 40-50 fps or so.

At absolute best the 10mm has about a 10% velocity advantage over the .40. Of course, the 10mm uses existing .40 designed bullets so pushing those faster doesn't necessarily benefit anything because when pushed too fast (a velocity BTW attainable at upper .40 levels for even the toughest JHP's) they break apart and give less penetration, not more and that's bad.

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A lot mor than a hundred. I can load up a 155 gr up to 1500 fps and still be under SAAMI pressure and a load that is in published data. That's near 300 over a 40.

Also velocity increases energy substantially at 300fps.

The subject has been discussed at length for years and the data is there. The 40 cant get close to 750 ftbs of energy out of a 5" barrel and stay safely within pressure.



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Pffffft, when it comes to 10mm, I look at Underwood and ignore just about all other manufacturers.

Underwood 200gr XTP 10mm from a 5" barrel has a published velocity/energy of 1250 FPS / 694 ft lbs. Anyone who questions this is welcome to do their own research and discover for themselves that unlike Double Tap and Buffalo Bore, Underwood velocities listed are what you actually get.

For a fair comarison:

Underwood's hottest .40S&W (200gr Hard Cast Flat Nose): 1000 FPS/444 ft lbs

Underwood's hottest 10mm (220gr Hard Cast Flat Nose): 1200 FPS/703

I don't know, but I see a distinct difference.

Don't get me wrong, I like the .40S&W and carry 2 of the three pistol I own chambered for it. I just don't feel it compares favorably to the 10mm.

This July, I'm converting my XDm 5.25 in .45acp to 460 Rowland.

Again, using Underwood:

Underwood's 230gr JHP (1400 FPS / 1001 ft lbs)

Neither the .40S&W nor the 10mm can compete with those crazy numbers.

Underwood Ammo

Ok

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wild cat mccane said:

Thinking about starting a new post, but let's see the response.

I've read a Glock 20 can safely fire .40 without modification. With a 100 dollar conversation barrel and spring, it can fire 9mm. SO, is the Glock 20 with a 9mm barrel the cat's rear for all around use for three calibers?

I am currently looking at 3 guns: 357 Taurus 66 6" stainless (new, own it), PPQ 9mm (new, own it), and the Glock 20 (don't own).

If you were to have any two, but only two, what would it be? The revolver is the odd man out in my mind, but it's different and fun. A G20 with conversion barrel leaves the PPQ only for a better grip and trigger, but nothing else.

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Well, that depends. What magazine works with 9mm in the G20, and how well does it work? And is this strictly a range gun? Concealing a G20 well is pretty damn hard for most people.

Yes, you can fire .40 out of an unmodified G20. But it's something I wouldn't do an a regular basis. The round is being held in place by the extractor. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it should be done.

And what mags are going to work for 9mm in a G20? I don't get the whole conversion barrel thing in most cases. But I also like to buy firearms in general so buying another one isn't a big deal.

"For what it's worth, I've had a LOT more issues with 10mm brass over the years than .40 brass, makes me think .40 brass is stronger. Oh yeah, unless you can get 10mm brass for free (you can with .40/.45 if you pick it up at the range), buying 10mm brass is costlier than .40/.45."

If free range brass is part of your equation then I suppose you're right. I purchase new Starline brass and it's usually good for 6-7 loadings before neck tension becomes an issue.

And, borrowing numbers from another member's post, I consider the difference between 450 & 700ft #s pretty significant.

I reload for the .40 S&W and it appears my Lee carbide dies for the .40 S&W can be used to load 10mm. So, I guess I'll be rolling my own after collecting my brass.

Being I have thousand of .401 hardcast (Brinell of 18 and above) and large pistol primers, I just have to find the right powder and I'm set. I'll probably find a recipe for the Win 231 and Powerpistol I have on hand.

Those powders will work but won't be full power 10mm loads. You want something along the lines of 800X or Longshot. Even though it doesn't meter and I have to throw every charge w/ my Chargemaster I use 800X.

I figured I wasn't done bleeding cash yet. Yes, I do want to come close to full power loads, so I guess I'll be hitting my LGS for new powder.

NY32182 said:

You can do what you want I guess, but I would personally not be loading a 180gr to go 1250 FPS from a .40. That sounds WAY over max to me.

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Using certain powders, in this case Longshot, it will get you around 1250 fps from a 5.3" Glock 35. You can get it from a G22 also but you'll have to push it a little harder. However, the main issue is that most don't associate the .40 with a 180gr at anything more than 1000 fps but people have started to associate the 10mm with a 180gr at 1300 fps. The problem with that is that 1000 fps isn't max for the .40 with the right powder but 1300 fps is very close to max in 10mm even with the right powder (180gr for both).

Underwood offers a 180gr at 1350fps and I know from experience that you have to go a good bit over max load data to achieve that velocity in anything 5" or less.

Wreck-n-Crew said:

A lot mor than a hundred. I can load up a 155 gr up to 1500 fps and still be under SAAMI pressure and a load that is in published data. That's near 300 over a 40.

Also velocity increases energy substantially at 300fps.

The subject has been discussed at length for years and the data is there. The 40 cant get close to 750 ftbs of energy out of a 5" barrel and stay safely within pressure.

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If more than a hundred, maybe 125?? I'm not a newb to reloading for the 10mm or the .40 and tell me if you will, which manufacturer shows data for the 10mm that will throw a 155gr up to 1500 fps from a 5" barrel? I can't find any, highest I see is just above 1400 fps. Highest I see for .40 S&W 155gr is almost 1300 fps (plus 10mm is from longer barrel and lighter weight bullets do react more to barrel length than heavier ones). Now I'm not saying you can't get a 155gr at 1500 fps from a 5" 10mm, you can I I know I have from a G20, but I wouldn't say it was definitely under SAAMI pressure rating of 37.5K PSI because again, no manufacturer lists a 155gr up to 1500 fps.

Go and compare manufacturer load data between the 10mm and .40, just keep in mind the 10mm is coming from a longer barrel almost always, so take off about 50-70fps since it's likely from a 5" bbl and .40 data is mostly from 4". You'll see that in some cases the 10mm might be a little more than 100 fps faster, but in many cases it will be less than 100 fps, again taking off 50-70 fps for barrel length differences.

As for much of internet 10mm data, I know because I've scoured about all of it over the years and what always happens is that people go over book data by as much as 20-25% at times and still claim it's safe, all in the name of trying to prove how powerful the 10mm is. I've shot enough to know that as I mentioned earlier, with HOT loadings I've had a LOT more issues with 10mm brass showing signs of being over pressure than .40 brass when loading the .40 HOT and yes, that means beyond "book" data. Even Underwood uses powder charges that are above book listed max and they evidently feel fine selling it to the public (although many have issues with this cause badly deformed brass).

I don't intend to say a .40 can achieve 750ft-lbs from a 5" barrel within pressure limits, but with lighter weight bullets like the 135gr and 155gr I see no reason it couldn't achieve 650-700 ft-lbs safely. For instance, Hodgdon for years claimed Longshot would throw a 135gr to 1480 fps from a 4" barrel, that's over 650 ft-lbs right there with an inch to go in a 5" bbl. It won't reach 750 ft-lbs with published data, but in all fairness, I'm not sure any manufacturers load data would get 750ft-lbs from a 5" 10mm either, some claim close to 700 though.

Snowdog said:

Pffffft, when it comes to 10mm, I look at Underwood and ignore just about all other manufacturers.

Underwood 200gr XTP 10mm from a 5" barrel has a published velocity/energy of 1250 FPS / 694 ft lbs. Anyone who questions this is welcome to do their own research and discover for themselves that unlike Double Tap and Buffalo Bore, Underwood velocities listed are what you actually get.

For a fair comarison:

Underwood's hottest .40S&W (200gr Hard Cast Flat Nose): 1000 FPS/444 ft lbs

Underwood's hottest 10mm (220gr Hard Cast Flat Nose): 1200 FPS/703

I don't know, but I see a distinct difference.

Don't get me wrong, I like the .40S&W and carry 2 of the three pistol I own chambered for it. I just don't feel it compares favorably to the 10mm.

This July, I'm converting my XDm 5.25 in .45acp to 460 Rowland.

Again, using Underwood:

Underwood's 230gr JHP (1400 FPS / 1001 ft lbs)

Neither the .40S&W nor the 10mm can compete with those crazy numbers.

Underwood Ammo

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I'm not bashing Underwood, they make power levels that others won't but they don't load everything all the way. I've loaded up 220gr 10mm hotter than Underwood offers and loaded a 200gr hardcast from a 4" G23 .40 to over 1150 fps (nearly 600 ft-lbs). I guess if you wanted to throw around energy numbers, which are largely meaningless, I've loaded the .40 to over 1000 ft-lbs, so yeah, uh that's better than a 10mm right?? My point is UW could load their .40 hotter but they don't. They can't load their 10mm hotter because there's no room left. Also, those two hard cast examples don't matter a whole lot, they're both designed for penetration and even at 1000 fps, a 200gr hard cast .40 will shoot through any hog or deer on earth.

The 460 Rowland is very cool, I've handload .45 Super to equal 460 Rowland ballistics (1000+ ft-lbs) from a G21.4 with KKM comped barrel. Now, Underwood makes good ammo but they could load the .45 Super a LOT warmer but they don't.

What I've learned is that while that power is cool to play with (speaking of 45 Super/460 Rowland), it's not very practical for self defense use and only really applies to hunting. Like the problem with the 10mm using .40 S&W designed bullets, pushing a 230gr .45 ACP designed bullet to 1400 fps is ... well it's stupid.

I found a way around that by loading up 250gr .452" bullets in the .45 SUPER (or insert 460 Rowland) and was still able to get well over 900 ft-lbs from the 5" KKM G21 barrel. Pretty cool but for self defense, I'd want to dial ALL of them back a bit, it's just too much.

Duvel said:

And, borrowing numbers from another member's post, I consider the difference between 450 & 700ft #s pretty significant.

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A few problems with that. First, both loaded warmly the 450 vs. 700 ft-lbs isn't accurate as a whole, heck several factory .40 offerings claim north of 500 ft-lbs. That's only accurate if you're comparing a HOT 10mm to a STANDARD .40 which is apples vs. oranges. Yes I know his example was of a seemingly hot .40 verses a truly hot 10mm, but it's not accurate. The 10mm loaded hot gives about 100 fps advantage over a .40 loaded hot, same barrel length.

Second problem is, how many .400" bullets out there are designed to handle 700 ft-lbs? Hard cast just punches holes, but the toughest .400" JHP bullets are the XTP and Gold Dot. The 180gr versions of either aren't much good past 600 ft-lbs (a little north of 1200 fps). The 165gr Gold Dot can up pretty decent at 1400 fps, which is a little above 700 ft-lbs and even then it's at the ragged edge. The 155gr Gold Dot can probably withstand 700ft-lbs without completely blowing apart but it would be close.

The key here is simple but overlooked, service grade handguns (of which the 10mm is part of) just don't deliver enough "energy" to be considered meaningful. What good is an extra 100 ft-lbs if the bullet can't handle it? Nothing living could tell the difference in 100 or even 200 ft-lbs of energy.

Gold Dots, I thought were plated, and really designed for lower velocities, no?

My own informal tests showed the 180 GD pretty much self destructing @ 1,230 into a gallon of water, where jacketed bullets tended to expand intact.

Not all apples to apples, but here's the link

The 10mm, for me, is "this year's hobby", and at 650+ loads I've kinda gone overboard. Fun to shoot, good woods gun for most of the 48, and, I imagine, fantastic at dispatching cover-taking zombies

I digress. Bottom line is it shoots anything faster than the .40, and that may make it better, or inferior, depending on the perceived need.