Engaging an AR shooter with handgun

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I think we need to think outside of the box in terms of an active shooter. In a shopping mall situation having a rifle in the vehicle is probably useless. However, if you're part of a large group of people stuck in a traffic snarl with no place to go when a terrorist decides to do his thing having a rifle aboard might keep you alive. Only problem is that most places that have predictably bad traffic are firearm unfriendly.
 
Good Ol' Boy,

If you want to carry a long gun in your vehicle, I've got no problem with it, it's your vehicle and your long gun. I'm a firm believer in being prepared but being realistic about it. Every time there is an active shooter incident in the news, someone, either here or in General Gun Discussions, brings up carrying a long gun in your vehicle as the solution to the problem. Often it becomes it's own thread.

You just need to be aware of the fact that a lot of guns are stolen from vehicles. Many of the crime guns used in St Louis, near where I live were stolen from vehicles as people leave their carry guns in their cars while going to sporting events like Cardinal Baseball games where carry is prohibited. So you are at risk of losing the gun every time you leave your vehicle unattended.

Then there is the chance that a self defense situation will present itself when you are in or at your vehicle. Yes, it can and has happened, but does that possibility outweigh the danger of having the gun stolen.

Guns are stolen from police vehicles all the time. I had a take home squad car, parked it in an outbuilding at the house when I was off duty. I still never left a weapon in the squad car, even though it was locked in my building.

Just some things to think about.
 
Jeff White said:
Good Ol' Boy,

If you want to carry a long gun in your vehicle, I've got no problem with it, it's your vehicle and your long gun. I'm a firm believer in being prepared but being realistic about it. Every time there is an active shooter incident in the news, someone, either here or in General Gun Discussions, brings up carrying a long gun in your vehicle as the solution to the problem. Often it becomes it's own thread.

You just need to be aware of the fact that a lot of guns are stolen from vehicles. Many of the crime guns used in St Louis, near where I live were stolen from vehicles as people leave their carry guns in their cars while going to sporting events like Cardinal Baseball games where carry is prohibited. So you are at risk of losing the gun every time you leave your vehicle unattended.

Then there is the chance that a self defense situation will present itself when you are in or at your vehicle. Yes, it can and has happened, but does that possibility outweigh the danger of having the gun stolen.

Guns are stolen from police vehicles all the time. I had a take home squad car, parked it in an outbuilding at the house when I was off duty. I still never left a weapon in the squad car, even though it was locked in my building.

Just some things to think about.
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Did you even read my last post at all?
 
shafter said:
I think we need to think outside of the box in terms of an active shooter. In a shopping mall situation having a rifle in the vehicle is probably useless. However, if you're part of a large group of people stuck in a traffic snarl with no place to go when a terrorist decides to do his thing having a rifle aboard might keep you alive. Only problem is that most places that have predictably bad traffic are firearm unfriendly.
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Very good point. The male San Bernardino terrorist and his friend had actually planned an attack on an exit-less stretch of freeway at rush hour.
 
I was surprised to learn that my M&P 40 shoots about 18 inches high at 100 yards.

Once I learned that though, hits on a pepper popper from prone or braced against a vertical post were not that difficult.

I am carrying a Glock 19 these days and need to get back out to the range to see where it hits at distance.
 
Approve of the long gun = but !

I was an LEO and carried a M-4 and a 12 bore,as well as a good deal of other "tools".

At a call of "officer under fire" at a OMC [ outlaw motorcycle club ] I arrived to act as cover for the LEO at the door and holding down a wounded member of the club.

He pointed out another cuffed man in front of my vehicle and I took control of him and put him in my unit.

At NO TIME,did I remember to open the trunk and retrieve my M-4 or other guns.

YES, HELL YES ,it was on my mind to get to them.

BUT I was not about to stop enroute,and sure as hell not about to leave my LEO alone while I went for a bigger gun.

It worked out just fine,but I fully realized that a trunk mounted gun was almost useless.

Took out the guns ofter,but never under fire.

That being the case,I keep a secured long gun with me at all times.

IF,ever I have to deploy it ---- I will be at least as cautious as I would to deploy a handgun when I knew there were inbound friendlys that might not know me.
 
If it isn't within arms reach you may as well plan on it not being in play.
 
Originally posted by shafter

If it isn't within arms reach you may as well plan on it not being in play.
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Amen.

We had this discussion earlier in regard to a school district providing for armed guards, but having them keep their AR 15s locked in their cars in the parking lot.
 
Aikibiker said:
I was surprised to learn that my M&P 40 shoots about 18 inches high at 100 yards.

Once I learned that though, hits on a pepper popper from prone or braced against a vertical post were not that difficult.

I am carrying a Glock 19 these days and need to get back out to the range to see where it hits at distance.
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I've found that mine is almost dead zeroed at 100. Maybe just a shade high.
 
It worked out just fine,but I fully realized that a trunk mounted gun was almost useless.
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Second this. If I had the time, I'd stop grab my rifle out the trunk and roll up with it. If not then it was the shotguns turn to come out. The overhead rack we had for the shotguns, worked extremely well. So of course we went to between the seats mounts that take forever to get a gun out of them.

Real world, IF (big if) you're going to be pro-active with an active shooter engagement (I'm not going to debate the pro's and con's of that here), a weapon with lots of rounds on board and spare mags is your best option. You have it on your person, and you have enough rounds for a sustained engagement. Realistically if you have G17 and 3 full size mags, you're giving up 8 rounds against a shooter with an AR/AK platform and 2 mags. It'll likely be over one way or the other before either of you are down to your last mag.

-Jenrick
 
I have a couple of AR-15s and love those things. Understand, I respect their ballistics, but they are not far and away from those of some handguns.

I'm saying it's not like bringing a BB gun to a .50 BMG fight.

I happen to carry 10mm handguns and noticed 5.56 rounds have less momentum than full power 200gr 10mm. The 10mm energy is in the neighborhood of half that of the AR-15.

Not advocating bravado, but if forced to engage, a 10mm can hit man sized targets at 100 yards all day long.

Just pushing against feelings of hopelessness if caught in such a bad situation.
 
Not advocating bravado, but if forced to engage, a 10mm can hit man sized targets at 100 yards all day long
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So can any other commonly used handgun round. It's not a question of ballistics, it comes down to an average shooter with an AR15 can almost effortlessly make hits at 100 yards, especially with an optic while it would take a very skilled shooter to make consistent hits with a handgun under pressure.
 
Also don't confuse kinetic energy (1/2M*V^2) and momentum(M*V). A 10mm probably has half the amount of KE as a 5.56 round. It will probably have more momentum however.

I'll toss out that having an optic on your pistol can make it a far fairer fight. The rifle still has the advantage, but suddenly a whole lot of scenarios that a pistol is traditionally a loosing bet change. With a Aimpoint H1, a Giesle 6 second mount, and a G34 I've shot my agencies rifle qual clean several times (50 yards and in). It changes shooting on the move with a pistol into something much closer to doing it with a rifle. There's more wobble due to the loss of the extra point of contact, but fundamentally it's the same. Dot on target, trigger straight to the rear. Honestly anything inside 25 even on the move is a gimmee.

-Jenrick
 
@ ARSPEUKINEN

I bought a Beretta 70 S after reading about its use by MOSSAD.

I still shoot it a great deal and of the FIRM opinion that you can stop ANY attacker IF you stand your ground and put all the rounds it hold = into a vital area.[ prefer the head ].

Many will argue that fact,but they were not there and using it for its purpose.

YES. there are choices and that is NOT my first choice [ unless I needed to make less noise ].

BUT remember that all they undertook to "remove" were not among the living after they did their deed.
 
Without having read any of the responses, I will respond to the OP: It matters not what you are firing while inside a building. The only things that matters are the shooter's mindset and skill level.
 
Kevin Rohrer said:
Without having read any of the responses, I will respond to the OP: It matters not what you are firing while inside a building. The only things that matters are the shooter's mindset and skill level.
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That's a very absolute statement. It matters not? Not ever? Under any circumstances?
 
scaatylobo said:
@ ARSPEUKINEN

I bought a Beretta 70 S after reading about its use by MOSSAD.

I still shoot it a great deal and of the FIRM opinion that you can stop ANY attacker IF you stand your ground and put all the rounds it hold = into a vital area.[ prefer the head ].

Many will argue that fact,but they were not there and using it for its purpose.

YES. there are choices and that is NOT my first choice [ unless I needed to make less noise ].

BUT remember that all they undertook to "remove" were not among the living after they did their deed.
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Different application though. Mossad wasn't exactly choosing them for reactive defense scenarios. They were using for assassinations and had the element of surprise.

Reacting to being shot at, trying to hit a moving target already shooting at you and stop them with a .22 (under life and death stress) is a far cry from walking up to them and dumping the mag in them by surprise.

Have you done any force on force training? The stress of that pales in comparison to the real thing, but most people are quite shocked at how little what they do with force on force (especially the first few times) resembles what they do on the range.

A tier 1 combat vet could dump .22s in the head in a reactive scenario, not many others can. Not enough time shooting under high stress to tap into their full abilities.
 
I am carrying a Glock 19 these days and need to get back out to the range to see where it hits at distance.
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If I am far enough away from the aggressor to question my ability to make the shot I am going to employee that tactical maneuver where my knees go up and down real fast. It's called running. I'm not a sworn officer and if my family's life isn't at stake and I can flee, well, give me three steps mister.....
 
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Massad Ayoob has written about a few good guys who engaged shooters at almost 100 yards and got them.

Might want to do some a) long range practice and b) precision speed shooting at close range.

And remember folks, Ed McGivern was shooting targets at 400-600 yards with handguns (and Munden did to.)

Deaf
 
Deaf Smith said:
Massad Ayoob has written about a few good guys who engaged shooters at almost 100 yards and got them.

Might want to do some a) long range practice and b) precision speed shooting at close range.

And remember folks, Ed McGivern was shooting targets at 400-600 yards with handguns (and Munden did to.)

Deaf
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Maybe people can post here some tips for shooting accurately at longer distances? What does one have to do differently than for shooting at self-defense distances?
 
And remember folks, Ed McGivern was shooting targets at 400-600 yards with handguns (and Munden did to.)
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LOL, profession exhibition shooters can do some amazing things...not that most of us are ever likely to be able to come close to what they do.
 
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