Would you support the No Fly No Buy List if they added Due Process?

If the due process was consistent with the protection of their rights as US citizens and there was an effective and funded appellate process then yes . If its non US citizens we are talking about then they can be bum rushed out the door like all non US citizens who are trouble makers should be.

No. I don't let fear of the statistically insignificant control my actions and clamor for the removal of rights from my countrymen. I don't accept it when it comes to assault weapon bans and universal background checks, and I'm not going to arbitrarily start accpeting it now because the shooter has ~scary~ attributes.

If you think that the "due process" requirement would protect the political dissidents and the otherwise innocent, you have a lot more faith in the federal government than I do.

I agree with Baron

If a person is so dangerous that he just cannot be allowed to board a plane, then he is too dangerous to be allowed to board a bus or to ride Amtrack or to rent a U-Haul and on and on...

And if he is that dangerous then he should be on a no-walk-around list. That is, he should be picked up and isolated from the general public. He should be regarded as a saboteur, a spy bent on an act of war. FDR executed some German spies who were put ashore on Long Island during WW2. They They had plans to wreak havoc, they were charged with crimes, found guilty, and punished.

The whole idea of a secret no-fly list that allows dangerous people to ride buses, trains, rent trucks, hang out at malls, go to the movies, etc. is stupid and pernicious.

To me, it all depends upon the specific details in the "Due Process".

From what little that I have read on the subject, it seems that now The List is secretly populated from many different sources and once your name is on it, rotsa-ruck trying to get it removed.

Yes, IF!

If they were to have REAL due process in which the accused, before a Federal Judge at government expense, had the right to contest their inclusion BEFORE being added to the list. Even then the government would have to confirm their inclusion before a Federal judge every six months or more often.

As this would not be practical the best thing to do is to stop immigration from those countries where Anti-American sentiment is the highest.

I agree fully with G.E. Lee. If there is not enough evidence to convict someone of a crime and prevent their legal access to firearms then they should be allowed full exercise of their constitutional rights. If there is enough evidence then they should be arrested, tried, and jailed in which case they will not be able to fly or access firearms during incarceration.
Either way, another law that tries to prevent access to firearms for those people with malicious intent with be as ineffective as all the rest. Terrorists and criminals do not care if they buy a gun from an FFL, a drug dealer, or if they have to steal it from a law abiding owner.

According to CBS news,(6:30 est today) some in the FBI worry that if someone is denied their gun purchase that it would tip them off that they're being watched. So if it makes law enforcement's job harder then no I wouldn't support it.
It does however make me think that if there's a waiting period for everyone it would allow law enforcement to show up and detain people on a terror watch list if they felt it necessary w/o tipping anyone off.

Were the Boston marathon bombers, San Bernardino shooters or the Orlando shooter on a do not fly list?
You could be mistakenly put on this list and many have, the real challenge is getting off the list, time and legal fees.

Flying is a privilege subject to whatever rules they want to instigate, their room their rules.

Firearm ownership is a right protected by the constitution.

So far, in this country, a person must be convicted of a crime to lose their constitutionally protected rights.

The problem at this point is I have been lied to by politicians for too long. It all sounds good on paper and I am certainly for keeping guns out of criminals hands.

But it doesn't matter what they promise anymore. I don't believe a word and have no expectation "due process" would in fact wind up protecting anyone who really didn't belong on a list. Just look at the NCIS denial backlog.

Ad-hominen, whatever. Whoever supports this madness is a moron.

The "no fly list" and even broader terrorist watch list were concocted solely for the purpose of evading due process requirements; they have no other function. Were probable cause, diligent investigation, and judgement by a jury required --as is the case for even the most minor of criminal infractions-- there would be no one on that list erroneously without an appeals process, there would be no one running around too dangerous to be armed but too safe to go free, there would be no injustice.

So why don't they just use the criminal justice system to disenfranchise these enemies of America, as our own founding document requires them to? Because they don't feel like following it any more, they don't find it's restrictiveness useful for their purposes, and don't give a damn whether they step all over your freedoms making a name for themselves.

Whoever supports this is too stupid to think about the implications for even five seconds, and that goes for LaPierre and Trump and all the other Quislings who'd trade a monstrosity with no possible redeeming qualities or restraint, for...what are we getting again?

TCB

It is also important to note that Due Process is, by definition, an up-front proposition, not an after-the-fact affair. If, by some miracle, your test-case survives all the way to the SCOTUS, where it is ruled in your favor, and you manage to force the lower district courts and municipalities to actually obey the judgement, and you manage to pay all your legal fees, salvage a life that isn't completely ruined by the all-dominating legal drama, and even live long enough to see the end of a 5-10 year process, minimum --the due process you enjoyed in appealing authorities to remedy your injustice doesn't change at all the fact that it was an injustice without due process in the first place.

Unless erroneous watch-list entries get beau-coup damages for suffering the bureaucratic nightmare (conservative estimates have the list about a third wrong at present, btw) and a darn rapid process for redeeming themselves, this whole show is for nothing.

Remember how everyone thought it'd be a great idea to debar all domestic abusers the right to keep and bear arms, retroactively? Welcome to Lautenberg 2.0, only this time you don't even need to be convicted of anything to begin losing your rights --you can get put on The Secret List simply by being a family member or acquaintance of someone suspected or accused of being a terrorist. And if you have the same name, it's all the same as far as you are concerned.

We successfully fight off Universal Background Checks to avoid registration/confiscation after a classroom of kids are killed, but we think this 'might be a good idea after all' even though there is no chance of us being unable to defend against Democrat legislative advances. Brilliant.

I sure hope folks realize (especially in the NRA) that they'd better be careful what they wish for. A heck of a lot of folks like me are in the Not One More Step camp, and will dump whatever support we've been giving to these weak-kneed geriatrics if they turn their backs on us after getting caught up in the moment. At that point, the NRA, the only national gun organization of any standing, will become fractured & lose its ability to influence legislative efforts against gun control (see: Republican Party post-Trump), and we'll really be in trouble. The fact Trump is even entertaining this madness could spell doom for gun rights advocates for generations...and is the exact kind of stuff you were all warned about in turning to him*.

TCB

The T-man had risen slightly in my estimation after his very strongly pro-freedom speech on the subject yesterday, but clearly only did so as a cover to convince people to go along with a short-sighted scheme to trade constitutional freedom for security, yet again. I finally gave him the benefit of the doubt, and he pulls this within 24hrs --no more. Nothing that man says will convince me to support him. #NeverTrump

No way. As was said, no fly, no bus, no train, no movement at all, where does it end. Just another incredible infringement and a list most people will never get off of no matter how innocent they are.

I am getting sick to death of all these so called compromises.

Ben Franklin sounds wiser with every passing day.

No. For all the reasons stated above.

No secret lists to strip US citizens of their rights. If you're accused of a crime than you deserve the right to a fair trial before your accuser before your rights are taken from you.

I give a QUALIFIED yes.

I would need to see the particulars on the "due process" but in general I might go along.



Todd.

Just remember the IRS scandal only a few short years ago concerning their 'secret' lists.

Far too many federal bureaucrats with their secret hidden agenda.

barnbwt has put it all together. I have committed no crime and do not need "due Process". Under no circumstances should there be any further restrictions on the 2nd Amendment for law abiding Americans.

If there was due process their would be no list, the people who would be rightly put on it would be in jail. The others would be free and should have their rights restored.. Therefore, no list.

Just remember the IRS scandal only a few short years ago concerning their 'secret' lists.

Far too many federal bureaucrats with their secret hidden agenda.

Click to expand...

Just start searching for domestic hate groups, chances are you'd fit in one of their categories.

Remember - Ted Kennedy found himself on the No Fly list.

How about we take away their First Amendment rights instead? No freedom of speech, no freedom of religion, no freedom of association. And then their 4th and 5th amendment rights next. Anything can be seized and or searched without warrant. (we're getting there anyway) And you can be compelled to testify against yourself. (Yay! Torture!) And the ever-important 3rd amendment. Make them quarter soldiers at their home including feeding them and doing their laundry. (The 3rd amendment seems to be the red-headed stepchild in the Bill of Rights. Apologies to red-headed stepchildren everywhere.)

Due process is so overrated.

Absolutely not.

......hell no......

OK.....Next stupid idea?