Questions about New NFA requirements

Get your lower engraved before you get your stamp back, because before the application is approved its just a regular gun. After the stamp is approved it's a title 3 gun and is subject to more restrictive handling rules.

Elkins45 said:

Get your lower engraved before you get your stamp back, because before the application is approved its just a regular gun. After the stamp is approved it's a title 3 gun and is subject to more restrictive handling rules.

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The rules concerning transport and transfer of a registered short barreled rifle only apply while the firearm is in a short barreled configuration. See ATF Letter here:https://www.guntrustlawyer.com/file...-Title-II-as-a-Title-1-across-state-lines.pdf

BIGRETIC said:

Hi all.I have had a Pap m92 for sometime and would like to turn it into an sbr.Unfortunately,I am somewhat confused.From my understanding,after July 13th,you no longer need a CLEO to sign off on your paperwork.Will there be a new form 1 or will it stay the same?I am trying to do this as an individual.I have checked and it seems my CLEO will sign off just trying to cut down on steps.
So....2 copies of form 1,1 copy of certificate of compliance.2 passport pictures and 2 copies of fingerprints.Send it in with 200 check.Get stamp,then get lower engraved.Then order stock.
Something like that?
Thanks in advance!

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Don't forget that, after July 13th, while you do not have to obtain the CLEO's certification, you are still required to notify the CLEO by forwarding a copy of the application. See ATF open letter here: https://princelaw.files.wordpress.com/2016/04/060216_atf_letter-_to_cleos.pdf

Form 5330.20 is no longer required as the questions are incorporated into the form 1.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/revised-atf-form-1-and-atf-form-5

Elkins45 said:

Get your lower engraved before you get your stamp back, because before the application is approved its just a regular gun. After the stamp is approved it's a title 3 gun and is subject to more restrictive handling rules.

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Not quite true. It does not become an SBR until you physically turn it into an sbr (add a stock, cut the barrel, etc.) and even after that, you can put it back into a pistol (or full length rifle) configuration at will.

The stamp just gives you the green light to build it, some people even wait months or a year before they get around to doing that particular build.

Ryanxia said:

Not quite true. It does not become an SBR until you physically turn it into an sbr (add a stock, cut the barrel, etc.)

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This is correct.

Ryanxia said:

and even after that, you can put it back into a pistol (or full length rifle) configuration at will.

The stamp just gives you the green light to build it, some people even wait months or a year before they get around to doing that particular build.

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This may not be. You can definitely return it to a rifle configuration, but it is not so clear that you can return it to a pistol configuration if that is what it started as. The way I read the laws, you can. However, it can be argued that once you have made it into an SBR, it is no longer the same weapon that it was as a pistol, and can't be returned to that configuration. Of course if it started as a rifle, it can never be a pistol.

This may not be. You can definitely return it to a rifle configuration, but it is not so clear that you can return it to a pistol configuration if that is what it started as. The way I read the laws, you can. However, it can be argued that once you have made it into an SBR, it is no longer the same weapon that it was as a pistol, and can't be returned to that configuration. Of course if it started as a rifle, it can never be a pistol.

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Ah, but since you have a tax stamp, it can be configured as a "pistol" and still legally be an SBR. It's still a weapon made from a rifle that's less than 26" overall, even without the buttstock attached.

Once you've got the stamp, you can basically configure it as anything you want. If it's a complete SBR, you may have to worry about who you hand it off to for engraving. If it's still just a lower, then you can treat it like any other lower receiver as far as engraving goes.

Aaron

pjeski said:

This may not be. You can definitely return it to a rifle configuration, but it is not so clear that you can return it to a pistol configuration if that is what it started as. The way I read the laws, you can. However, it can be argued that once you have made it into an SBR, it is no longer the same weapon that it was as a pistol, and can't be returned to that configuration. Of course if it started as a rifle, it can never be a pistol.

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It's widely accepted (and many threads on THR discussing) that a pistol can go to a rifle and back to a pistol again. The length of the barrel makes no difference to this rule. Simply that if the length of the barrel in rifle configuration is less than 16" it requires a tax stamp.

I haven't heard any uncertainty on this but if you find something I'd be curious to see because it seems cut and clear to me.

Elkins45 said:

Get your lower engraved before you get your stamp back, because before the application is approved its just a regular gun. After the stamp is approved it's a title 3 gun and is subject to more restrictive handling rules.

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That is totally incorrect. It is only an NFA weapon when in an NFA configuration.

Also a Form 1 is permission to build and the ATF has never said anything about the order of operations.

Mike

Arizona_Mike said:

That is totally incorrect. It is only an NFA weapon when in an NFA configuration.

Mike

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OK, but there are still advantages to getting it engraved first. If they lose/mangle your pre-stamp lower then you lose the cost of a new lower plus the hassle of amending your Form 1. If they lose/mangle it after approval then aren't you are out the cost of another stamp as well? They don't let you cut the SN off of an old gun and weld it onto a new one, do they? An NFA item isn't like Thesius' Ship.

It actually seems like a good idea to build it as a pistol and test fire it with the desired upper before even filing the application. The wrong time to find out that your lower is out of spec is the day after you receive a stamp on it.

FWIW neither of my approved lowers are engraved. I engraved the barrels instead.

Elkins45 said:

If they lose/mangle your pre-stamp lower then you lose the cost of a new lower plus the hassle of amending your Form 1. If they lose/mangle it after approval then aren't you are out the cost of another stamp as well? They don't let you cut the SN off of an old gun and weld it onto a new one, do they? An NFA item isn't like Thesius' Ship.

It actually seems like a good idea to build it as a pistol and test fire it with the desired upper before even filing the application. The wrong time to find out that your lower is out of spec is the day after you receive a stamp on it.

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In the case of the OP it's a factory firearm that I would assume he's test fired before. In the case of an AR stripped lower, I couldn't see how an engraver could mangle it so bad that there would be no room to engrave it again somewhere else. If they lose your firearm, well yes that would be bad but highly unlikely unless you're mailing it out to some large company.

If my lower were out of spec, I would be contacting the factory that made it and sending it in to be serviced/replaced. I would be sure to inform them that if it needs to be scrapped and replaced, the serial number has already been registered as an NFA item and that I would need the same serial number.

Nothing wrong with your way though, to each their own. But you can definitely legally change the configuration.

Elkins45 said:

OK, but there are still advantages to getting it engraved first. If they lose/mangle your pre-stamp lower then you lose the cost of a new lower plus the hassle of amending your Form 1. If they lose/mangle it after approval then aren't you are out the cost of another stamp as well? They don't let you cut the SN off of an old gun and weld it onto a new one, do they? An NFA item isn't like Thesius' Ship.

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Not a bad piece of advice. Certainly is the prudent thing to do. But, the way I figure it, even if they bugger up the engraving, the law requires certain markings. It does not prohibit additional markings. If the engraver buggers up your engravings, have them re-do it and strike out / remove the buggered up ones. It's only 0.003" deep, plenty of meat left for a do-over.

It actually seems like a good idea to build it as a pistol and test fire it with the desired upper before even filing the application. The wrong time to find out that your lower is out of spec is the day after you receive a stamp on it.

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Also a prudent idea. Though I do wonder how many lowers end up being out of spec and put out in the market... At the very least, building it as a pistol first allows you to have all the components around waiting on the stamp, and you get to play with your toy while you wait!

FWIW neither of my approved lowers are engraved. I engraved the barrels instead.

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The barrel is a viable option, as long as your barrel extends out of the hand guard enough to engrave. An AR upper (not exactly germane to this thread, but still interesting) is also a receiver, and thus meets the letter of the law.

The problem with either of these is having to engrave every barrel / upper you own. For the people who demand a professional engraving and have several uppers, that cost can add up.

Given that receivers are cheaper than barrels these days and I always like to follow the old adage of "Always modify the cheapest part " especially when one receiver can use a bunch of barrels . Sure theres instances where someone is using an expensive preban Colt receiver. In that case go buy a $40 Anderson receiver and make it the host.

yugorpk said:

Given that receivers are cheaper than barrels these days and I always like to follow the old adage of "Always modify the cheapest part " especially when one receiver can use a bunch of barrels . Sure theres instances where someone is using an expensive preban Colt receiver. In that case go buy a $40 Anderson receiver and make it the host.

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Funny you should say that, because that's exactly how it worked out for me. When I filed my first Form1 SBR my older Colt was my only AR and I didn't want to engrave it. I only have two uppers and I engraved both barrels. When I filed on my second lower I didn't need to engrave it because both of my barreled uppers were already done.

In the case of an SBR I don't think it really matters between a $50 lower and a $100 barrel: neither are going to have any appreciable resale value anyway.

Aaron Baker said:

Ah, but since you have a tax stamp, it can be configured as a "pistol" and still legally be an SBR. It's still a weapon made from a rifle that's less than 26" overall, even without the buttstock attached.

Once you've got the stamp, you can basically configure it as anything you want. If it's a complete SBR, you may have to worry about who you hand it off to for engraving. If it's still just a lower, then you can treat it like any other lower receiver as far as engraving goes.

Aaron

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That's an entirely different subject. We're talking about returning it to a title 1 configuration.

Ryanxia said:

It's widely accepted (and many threads on THR discussing) that a pistol can go to a rifle and back to a pistol again. The length of the barrel makes no difference to this rule. Simply that if the length of the barrel in rifle configuration is less than 16" it requires a tax stamp.

I haven't heard any uncertainty on this but if you find something I'd be curious to see because it seems cut and clear to me.

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It's not clear cut. If you read ATF ruling 2011-4 and the cited laws carefully, it only talks about making a title 1 pistol into a title 1 rifle and back. It admonishes you to be careful not to make a title 2 weapon in the process. It does not specifically cover making a title 1 pistol into a title 2 rifle and back. While my personal belief is that it is ok, I understand the arguments against it.

https://www.atf.gov/file/55526/download

The ATF clarified that you have to send your CLEO a copy of all documents pertaining to the application, so the ATF form and if you're using a Trust the Trust documents. Silencerco sent me the ATF letter on that when I mentioned to them that the actual 41P rule doesn't state you need to include Trust information but apparently it does.