What's Wrong with Magazine Disconnects?

CraigAPS said:

The only scenario that I can think of that could be a problem would be during a SD altercation during which the magazine is ejected from the weapon. .

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That's pretty much it, and for many (like me), it's enough of a bad thing. Plus, depending on the semi, the slide and trigger won't operate manually, either.

On my favorite gun that usually incorporates a magazine disconnect, the Browning Hi Power, it can also make the trigger a little (or a lot) firmer and a little (or a lot) more creepy. They are simple to remove on the BHP, though, for anyone who sees their presence as a drawback.

Yep, you pretty much got it. If I'm in a tussle and my gun's mag is ejected, I don't want to be disqualified from using the round in the chamber because of some stupid "safety" mechanism.

Additionally, in dynamic gun games (IDPA, USPSA, etc.) when you clear your weapon after a stage you have to show clear, close the slide, and pull the trigger, dryfiring the gun. Having to keep an empty mag with you at all times so you can insert it so that you can dryfire the piece is a hassle.



And of course, it adds some complexity and a possible mistake vector into the regular dryfire practice every shooter should be doing.

Two scenarios I have seen:

First is: you pull the magazine out of the pistol to render it safe, but forget about the round in the chamber or falsely believe you had not chambered a round; you empty the magazine and re-insert it: the forgotten round becomes an accident in waiting. I prefer to rely on the instinctive drill first remove the magazine, second clear the chamber whether you "know" it's empty or not.

Second is: me accidentally losing a magazine hiking or ATVing. Without a magazine safety, I would have a single shot pistol. With a magazine safety, I would have a short club.

Some people find the magazine disconnect affects the smoothness of the trigger pull or feel that the extra parts degrade reliability. Depends a lot on the design. Quite a few guns it has no effect on trigger pull or reliability.

I6turbo said:

On my favorite gun that usually incorporates a magazine disconnect, the Browning Hi Power, it can also make the trigger a little (or a lot) firmer and a little (or a lot) more creepy. They are simple to remove on the BHP, though, for anyone who sees their presence as a drawback.

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Removing the magazine safety from a Browning Hi Power equals instant trigger job.

That's ALL that was done to mine and it's INFINITELY better than it was.

On the other hand...

If in close quarters combat and you are about to lose your gun to the attacker you can hit the magazine release ejecting the magazine making it unable to be fired.

Losing the magazine from out of the gun while in activity such as riding a ATV is a holster design issue not a gun problem. A better retention design or a full flap will prevent accidental loss.

Who goes into the field without a spare magazine anyway?

If in close quarters combat and you are about to lose your gun to the attacker you can hit the magazine release ejecting the magazine making it unable to be fired.

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I'd say that would equate to rather ninja-level anticipation and reaction to that very chaotic situations -- but would be strangely juxtaposed against your seeming inability to instead push the OTHER, much larger, button that makes the gun go "bang."

Having made light of this, I will say that I've heard it repeated a few times. I think folks must have seen it in a movie somewhere.

The mag disconnect on 3rd Gen S&W pistols like my 4006 is murder on the feel of the trigger. I like my pistols bone stock except maybe a set of Trijicons but having that disconnect removed would be nice. However, it's not a priority for me.

Its existence at all makes sense for law enforcement. If I felt like I was going to lose control of my pistol during an altercation, it would be good to be able to drop the mag and let the suspect fumble with it while I use one of my other party favors on him. But I'm not a cop, and I find the scenarios in which the disconnect might be useful to me to be vanishingly small. As others have said, if I need to drop the mag then I also need to shoot or I wouldn't have drawn my pistol in the first place.

Masad Ayoob touts the "off-switch-in-a-gun-grab" benefits, and claims to have one or more documented instances of it saving a LEO's life. I think the notion is that the mag release button gets pushed while the gun is in or near the holster, not while the owner has it in a full firing grip.

I, personally, express no opinion.

I agree, if you have time to push the mag releasable button you have time to pull the trigger. Simple is better and anything extra added to a gun can fail. I do not want a mag cutoff and will not carry a gun that has one. Others may disagree and are free to buy the guns I won't buy. I don't think they are wrong, it's just not for me.

Really, it's much easier to pull the trigger than reach for the mag release to drop the mag. What is to say you will even remember to drop the mag when you think you might have your gun stripped? Also, what if you drop the mag and don't lose your gun? Now it's you who can't fire your own gun to prevent the bad guy from getting you. It's just another "safety" thought up by lawyers that sounds good on paper but not in real life. It's always the unintended consequences.

As far as the idea of just pulling the trigger when in CQB it seems like to me that it would not be a good idea to do so unless the muzzle of the gun is pointed at some part of the attackers body.

I don't like them either. I have a Browning DBA with a mag disconnect. Good gun but don't like that feature. I much prefer the 1911 and Glock guns without it.

I do not like the concept of a mag disconnect. The likelyhood of it ever being a benefit is remote, while the possibility of it being a detriment is considerably higher (I say that because I generally pocket carry and have had mags dislodged several times, a couple times falling next to my car seat and I didn't know of till much later. I'll take ONE shot over NO shots, any day.)
I got in a lengthy argument with some of the guys on the S&W forum about this, and many of them insisted it's vitally important to leave it in place, citing all sorts of far-fetched scenarios in support of it.
But I argued that if a pistol with a disconnect removed is such a dangerous liability, then ALL the pistols that never had them in the first place must also be dangerous and deficient, so shouldn't they all be retro-fitted with mag safeties?
Either it's a critically important feature, PERIOD.......or it ain't. The idea that it's vital in a Hi-power or S&W 5906, but not in a Glock or 1911, is utterly ridiculous.
I don't like the idea that the pistol can easily and instantly be rendered useless, by a simple accident. If I want to render the pistol infireable, I'll just remove the slide.

Sam1911 said:

Additionally, in dynamic gun games (IDPA, USPSA, etc.) when you clear your weapon after a stage you have to show clear, close the slide, and pull the trigger, dryfiring the gun. Having to keep an empty mag with you at all times so you can insert it so that you can dryfire the piece is a hassle.



And of course, it adds some complexity and a possible mistake vector into the regular dryfire practice every shooter should be doing.

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As always you have added substance to the conversation.


Those are two valid points which I personally hadn't thought of before. It seems as if most of the time when this topic gets brought up people focus on a SD situation, but your points are more "every day" reasons against MD's.

CraigAPS said:

I'm looking at getting my first FS semi-auto, and I'm curious as to why I keep seeing in reviews for different guns: "I love that it doesn't have a magazine disconnect" or "I like it except for the disconnect," etc. So, my question is: why is this such a bad thing? From what I understand about disconnects, they will not let the weapon fire without a mag in the mag well. Why is this a problem? I can understand why some people prefer not to have a slide-mounted safety (I bring up the safety issue because most reviews I've read/watched conflate the two issues and make them sound equally bad). I can see things from their point of view about the safety. I get it. But, I really don't understand the disconnect issue. The only scenario that I can think of that could be a problem would be during a SD altercation during which the magazine is ejected from the weapon. I don't know. Maybe that's just my lack of experience/imagination.

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Same reason people hate the manual safety.


No true operator would ever accept a manual safety, or mag disconnect. Those are for sissy gun noobies...

I don't like them. They are extra parts, that tend to fall out of pistols I own that come with them.

Most all of them will affect the trigger pull in a negative way.

When I face a steel plate that tries to take my firearm, I'l reconsider.

I carry a revolver for SD. It has no magazine disconnect.

Many good points made already. I'm not a fan at all. I think the worse one is on the new Ruger MkIIIs since you need a mag handy when you go to take it apart since it has to be decocked to so that, not sure but I think you need the mag twice.

I see it as a bad solution to poor training in most cases.

Robert101 said:

I don't like them either. I have a Browning DBA with a mag disconnect. Good gun but don't like that feature. I much prefer the 1911 and Glock guns without it.

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I took mine off my Browning, pretty easy, no worries.

I dislike the attitude and thought process that is driving the companies to put them on as much as I dislike the actual part.




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Mag safeties are bad because they often require a magazine be inserted for function check & disassembly. I would go so far as to say they are actually a hazardous feature when a dedicated de-cocking override device is not present. An extreme hazard if dry firing is also required for disassembly. The only time I can see them being beneficial is when dealing with users who are expected to no nothing more than load the magazine & fire the gun (i.e. MIL/LEO, with very low standards for training aptitude, but strong discipline [contradictory, I know])

Yes, it is primarily a training issue, obviously. But still, when trying to troubleshoot a problem when not intending to fire, a magazine will be required. Basically, since you've made it impossible for the gun to fire without a mag, you've also made it impossible to operate the gun without getting an ammunition feeding device (and therefore ammunition) involved.

Far too easy to get the slide rack and mag-insertion steps out of order, compared to simply not needing to bother with an ammunition feeding device at all, when doing tasks that do not require discharge. Far too easy to mix up that empty mag you keep for dry-fire drills confused with the one full of Golden Sabres.

Four Rules will ensure that the situation cannot get too out of hand, but for sure a magazine disconnect makes abiding them far more critical than designs lacking one, in my opinion. That said, an ancestor of mine in times past killed himself while drunkenly celebrating Victory in Europe by dropping the mag from his service pistol & placing the muzzle to his temple...

...I still don't think that's a very ringing endorsement of the need for a magazine safety, but instead a call to keep a clear head while carrying a firearm.

I see it as a bad solution to poor training in most cases.

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Best summation yet.

TCB

I second what Ohen said.

Adding a magazine safety to the already complex dis/reassembly of the Ruger MarkIII and 22/45 is not only making things harder but worse, adding a potential safety issue into the process.

Probably goes without saying that my 22/45 no longer has the mag disconnect 'feature'.

I have a Marlin Camp 9 and a Camp 45. Anybody know how to remove the safety feature from these weapons?

MaterDei said:

I have a Marlin Camp 9 and a Camp 45. Anybody know how to remove the safety feature from these weapons?

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I would check and see if the participating members of this thread could help you out.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-118553.html

I didn't see this mentioned yet, but without a magazine disconnect, in the event of a tactical reload (switching to a full magazine before the present magazine/gun is empty), while reloading, you still have one round able to fire, with which to defend yourself.

Andy