Lead Sled or just bipod and bags

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SKMoss

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Good morning all.

While I sit here waiting impatiently for my Remington 700 to get delivered I started to ponder a newbie question.

Last weekend I was at the range and chatting with a guy shooting another .308. He was testing handloads. I'm getting into doing my own hand loads so started peppering him with questions. Like most shooters he was a great guy and we talked a lot.

I noticed that he was using a bipod while he was testing his rounds. That got me thinking. At least currently, even off a bipod I don't shoot better than 1 or 2 moa groups at 100 with my .30-06. At 50yard with my .17 I can (absent fliers) shoot about 1 moa.

Sorry for the long lead into the question. When testing loads should a shooter like me use a lead sled or similar so I take the shooter out of the question? I don't mean to sight in, only to see how the rifle and load are working together? It would seem to me that 1/2 grain changes in charge aren't going affect the bullet placement so much that the inconsistency of shooter isn't going to hide the changes.

Thoughts?
 
When you're testing the consistency and accuracy of your hand loads in any rifle, you want to remove as much human influence as possible from the equation. That's the only way to know exactly what the load and rifle are capable of producing, and you don't have to wonder whether you're seeing results skewed by the shooter's inconsistency - whether the effect is positive or negative.

So yeah, a lead sled is a good idea. For that matter, there's nothing wrong with using a sled during sight-in either.
 
Thanks for the quick response Bobson.

I'm a little surprised by the idea of using a sled for sight-in as well. I would have originally assumed you'd want the foibles and idiosyncrasies if the shooter at hand?

But I suppose that if I site in with sled, the goal is then to shoot like i was using a sled?
 
Unfortunately, the "foibles and idiosyncrasies" will NEVER be repeatable, no matter how steady you are. If you can eliminate any human variation during sight-in and testing, then, when shooting from a different position, the ONLY variation will come from human movement and position.

Think of it this way: if you can't repeat what your position and movement are EXACTLY every time, and you sight your rifle "as close as you can get it", then, in the field, you will be trying to shoot a bullet with as little movement on the gun as possible, and a rifle that was seeing some movement at sight-in. If your rifle is sighted in during a period of no movement, you can be sure that it is sighted dead-on (as close as possible), and the only variation you have to account for is the variations that you introduce by your presence.
 
badkarmamib said:
Unfortunately, the "foibles and idiosyncrasies" will NEVER be repeatable, no matter how steady you are. If you can eliminate any human variation during sight-in and testing, then, when shooting from a different position, the ONLY variation will come from human movement and position.

Think of it this way: if you can't repeat what your position and movement are EXACTLY every time, and you sight your rifle "as close as you can get it", then, in the field, you will be trying to shoot a bullet with as little movement on the gun as possible, and a rifle that was seeing some movement at sight-in. If your rifle is sighted in during a period of no movement, you can be sure that it is sighted dead-on (as close as possible), and the only variation you have to account for is the variations that you introduce by your presence.
Click to expand...
Excellent points. I was looking at it more like being the Chi Chi Rodrigues of shooting. This is showing my age a bit. Chi Chi had a technically horrible swing, but did it wrong, the same way every time and had a nice pro golf career.

I like your thought process WAY better. Thanks.
 
I had a Lead Sled for awhile and got rid of it. For light recoil guns like the 308 Winchester you don't need it and for heavy recoiling guns with wooden stocks there is a risk of breaking the stock.

d1ucu283.jpg

Shot using a front bipod and a rear bag. When not using a bipod, I use a front bag as well. If you discipline yourself with practice either work just fine.

Shooting 1 to 2 MOA groups with a 30/06 off a bipod indicates a problems with the shooter, the load and/or the rifle.
 
I began shooting from a bench rest before bipods and lead sleds were thought of. Back then, the primary use of a rifle was for hunting.

So, sand bags. What should be obvious for tight groups is consistency in positioning the rifle during a course of fire. I always had the forearm bag in the same location as my support hand when in the field--whether in load development or in sight-in.

In load development, I commonly let the forearm float and have a fairly light pressure against my shoulder. That's the only way I know to try to take myself out of the shot. For sight-in for my hunting, I try to have pretty much the same pressure against my shoulder as I would in the field.

As usual, "I dunno." Shrug. It's worked out well for me, both in sub-MOA groups and in one-shot kills. :)
 
I've only used a lead sled a couple times, but I was never able to get the stability I needed for load development out of that setup. I pretty much always use front and rear bags for my load testing. A bipod would be fine as well if you're working up loads on a heavier rifle and have good bipod technique.
 
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I've always used bags for load development and zeroing. I've tried bipods for field use, but find them too cumbersome. I do carry some portable shooting sticks in my pack when hunting.

If you're not doing better than 1-2MOA then either that is the best that rifle will do, or your skills could use some honing. That isn't terribly bad shooting for a hunting rifle. A lead sled won't address either of those issues. And they do have a reputation for breaking rifle stocks.
 
I have a led sled and like gscotty could never get repeatable results from it. Bipod and rear bag have allowed me to get the job done
 
Bags

I am not a fan of the Lead Sled for two reasons. For one when shooting from the Lead Sled it does not recoil like it would either in the field shooting or off of sand bags. IME you will definitely have point of impact changes when switching from the Lead Sled to something else.

For another I have seen first hand the splitting of a wood stock in the tang area due to shooting in a Lead Sled. The rifle in question was a Ruger M77 in .338 Winchester Magnum. It now wears a Hogue Overmolded stock, and it shoots and feels much much better.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
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I'm surprised to see the negative comments here about lead sleds. I've found them to be much more consistent than I am when sighting in my rifles. They've made that "3 shot sight in" method work for me. I've never used them for anything with more recoil than a 5.56 though.
 
I use both sled and bags. Sled is mainly for load development.


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A lead sled for a .308 is better suited for initial sighting. Shoot a two to warm barrel. Set up for dead center shoot one. I see a lot of folks not getting which way to turn turrets. Try this. Put the scope back on dead center in the sled. Turn the turrets until they are pointing at your last shot. If you did not move your gun you will be zeroed. Shoot dead center and readjust if necessary. Next get rid of the sled. It can cause as many problems as it might help. Much of which is ^^here^^. Learn to shoot and "feel" off the front rest and rear bag. Keep the front rest as far from the rear bag as you can. Look for errors. Like is a bipod touching anything? Is your gun level? Is your target level? If you plan on using a bi-pod, learn to shoot off it. When a gun goes bang, the recoil may well force parts of the gun to touch something on a sled before the bullet leaves the barrel. You might only notice by the bad group.
 
Interesting question. I started out on bags (no bipod). Also, I find that my point of impact relative to point of aim is quite different between using a lead sled and bags. Since the point of impact during hunting is closer to what I get from bags, I use bags for a final zero and the sled to save my shoulder during accuracy testing and initial sight in.
 
Cleveland48 said:
I use both sled and bags. Sled is mainly for load development.


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Click to expand...

This.
I have a lead sled and until now kind of wondered why I'd bothered to buy it.
I recently picked up a .375H&H, a decent amount of brass, and a few hundred 270gr. bullets to play with.
Now I'm glad I have the sled, since I now have to work up a load or two for it.
 
Checking the load = lead sled or sandbags/bipod

Checking YOUR accuracy.. shoot it like you would in the field.
 
I have both and have used both but my preference off the bench is my old Wichita Rifle Rest using a Protektor Small Owl Ear Bag for the front and a Bunny Bag for the stock.

Looks like this when setup:
Wichita%20Rifle%20Rest.png


The lead slead is OK, I am just not a real big fan of it. I used the lead sled for some velocity experiments and beyond that really don't use it much.

Lead%20Sled.png


Seriously, for starters, I would make yourself a few sand bags buying some "play sand" from Lowes or Home Depot and see how that works for you.

Ron
 
My experience is the same as some of the above. Using a Lead Sled not only changes point of impact, but I can shoot considerably better using a benchrest type rest on the front and bunny ear bags on the back. Mine has a remote trigger actuator so there is zero pull on the rifle when firing.

Technique is important with bags. Set up so the POA is a little high, then squeeze the rear bag to move the rifle onto correct position. If you have to move the rifle into position with your hands, you're doing it wrong. At rest with rear bag slightly squeezed, you should be lined up.

I also like to hold my thumb against the rear of the trigger guard and pinch the trigger. This keeps from shifting the rifle with the trigger squeeze.
 
I prefer to shoot from the bench, the way I shoot in the field while deer hunting: a bi-pod up front, and a sand bag in the rear. I do get better accuracy with sandbags front and back.

JMHO,

Geno
 
I use a lead sled for load development and to ascertain the accuracy of my rifles. For the final zeroing, I shoot from a bipod or similar rest. The POI can change; especially if you strap the rifle down. With a lead sled I can get sub MOA. With a tripod I'm doing good to get 1.5 MOA.
 
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