david58
Member
CBS and Uncle Joe have gone for it. A nice rehearsed talk about banning armor piercing rounds, since that is the kind of ammo that killed the Dallas policemen.
Here we go again....
David
Here we go again....
David
Now its armor piercing rounds
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medalguy
Member
AP used in Dallas?
I just saw a CBS story claiming that armor piercing bullets were used in the killing of the police officers in Dallas. Has anyone else seen anything about this? All I can find is a general reference by a Newtown spokesperson claiming that the NRA has helped "make available ammunition capable of piercing police armor." Of course, we all know body armor has never, and never will, protect a human body from rifle ammunition.
In the CBS story, the reporter was talking with Joe Biden about why the administration has not banned AP ammo. Next?
I just saw a CBS story claiming that armor piercing bullets were used in the killing of the police officers in Dallas. Has anyone else seen anything about this? All I can find is a general reference by a Newtown spokesperson claiming that the NRA has helped "make available ammunition capable of piercing police armor." Of course, we all know body armor has never, and never will, protect a human body from rifle ammunition.
In the CBS story, the reporter was talking with Joe Biden about why the administration has not banned AP ammo. Next?
Acera
Member
Bet they were surplus military green tip or equivalent.
Not illegal, but designed for penetration.
5.56 was in great demand in the Houston area this past weekend.
With him having a vest, I bet they go after those also.
.
Not illegal, but designed for penetration.
5.56 was in great demand in the Houston area this past weekend.
With him having a vest, I bet they go after those also.
.
Apachedriver
Member
I think we've got to differentiate between the simplistic understanding of the general public and what is fact when it comes to armor piercing.
To the public, a bullet proof vest stops bullets and if a bullet penetrates it, then it's an evil armor pricing bullet that shouldn't be on the market.
It's this lack of knowledge that the left and anti-gunners uses to build their case on regardless of topic. Unfortunately, there are many on the conservative side that lack information as well. In turn, they inadvertently hurt our case when they speak on national TV.
Example: There was a forensic specialist interviewed on FOX the morning after the Dallas shooting. Her explanations of the shooter included 2 shot rifle being made to sound like automatic fire by the use of multiple clips and special devices that are legally purchased freely to convert them into automatic rates of fire. There's more but you get the idea.
To the public, a bullet proof vest stops bullets and if a bullet penetrates it, then it's an evil armor pricing bullet that shouldn't be on the market.
It's this lack of knowledge that the left and anti-gunners uses to build their case on regardless of topic. Unfortunately, there are many on the conservative side that lack information as well. In turn, they inadvertently hurt our case when they speak on national TV.
Example: There was a forensic specialist interviewed on FOX the morning after the Dallas shooting. Her explanations of the shooter included 2 shot rifle being made to sound like automatic fire by the use of multiple clips and special devices that are legally purchased freely to convert them into automatic rates of fire. There's more but you get the idea.
Charles S
Member
He used an SKS.
Acera
Member
Oh, I thought it was something in 5.56, my mistake. Then probably the ammo that is attracted to a magnet. Number of threads on here about how some gun ranges consider that armor piercing and ban its use.
Charles S
Member
He may very well have used steel core ammo, I have not ready anyone who said he did or didn't. Many gun ranges do ban the use of steel core ammo. I don't think the media even knows (or cares) what he used. They are just using this as a talking point. Most any high velocity rifle round will defeat vest designed for pistol rounds.
The media will just use this as an opportunity to talk bad about guns and in this case ammo.
The latest photos show a Saiga or other AK variant.
Charles S
Member
You may be correct, but multiple sources are reporting an SKS.
http://https://www.quora.com/What-weapons-were-used-in-the-Dallas-Shooting-of-Police-Officers
I did however mention that the media is generally wrong in their reporting.
I did find another source suggestion a Siaga.
Kevin Rohrer
Member
He used a rifle. It is irrelevant where the round was AP or Ball or Frangible or Unobtanium. It was a r-i-f-l-e firing a medium velocity rifle round, which easily goes through personal body armor.
Prince Yamato
Member
It was an AK-74
http://lawofficer.com/2016/07/exclusive-photo-of-the-saiga-ak-74-rifle-used-at-dallas-shooting/
So... not an SKS.
It probably WAS armor piercing ammo then (assuming surplus). They said he had been training. Probably but a bunch of it.
http://lawofficer.com/2016/07/exclusive-photo-of-the-saiga-ak-74-rifle-used-at-dallas-shooting/
So... not an SKS.
It probably WAS armor piercing ammo then (assuming surplus). They said he had been training. Probably but a bunch of it.
danez71
Member
TX capital is very liberal. Dallas mayor is Democrat. Police chief mentions no long gun OC. Now bullets being demonized. Shooter wore a vest.
Good luck.
Good luck.
thump_rrr
Member
The rifle shown in photos appears to be a Saiga AK-74 reportedly in 5.45x39 which can definitely use ammunition capable of penetrating bulletproof vests.
Basically it's the argument based in ammo that is designed to penetrate cover vs those designed to defeat bullet resistant vests. It was part of the language on banning M855 last year and the ATF only tabled the proposed regulation to prohibit. It's based on some arcane language over bullet resistant vests that keeps getting dragged into what determines "armor piercing, " and it's a spin on the legal interpretation. As the ATF is charged by Congress to make that determination (like other Agencies, to spare Congressmen from dealing with an open stance,) they get to decide. That is how "law" is made these days. Not by actual recorded vote.
Now add in all the other Agencies who are charged to make regulation - EPA, DOT, etc and you see just how difficult it is to get elected representatives to change things. We have a lot of gridlock because we allowed bureaucrats in protected positions to make the choices, not term limited or inexperienced legislators who defer to their "expertise."
Now add in all the other Agencies who are charged to make regulation - EPA, DOT, etc and you see just how difficult it is to get elected representatives to change things. We have a lot of gridlock because we allowed bureaucrats in protected positions to make the choices, not term limited or inexperienced legislators who defer to their "expertise."
lysanderxiii
Member
Is 7N10, 7N22 or 7N24 still (or has it ever been) imported?
You are mistaken.
Virtually nobody has steel core ammo. Ammo you can buy at retail is not steel core.
There is steel jacketed ammo being sold, generally it is a bi-metal bullet with some copper cladding the steel, but the steel is in the jacket, not the core. It is banned at a lot of indoor ranges because it sparks against the backstop and the ranges say it is an increased risk of fire (I think it also wears the backstop down faster?). Outdoor ranges out west in dry/fire seasons ban it for the same spark/fire reason as well, I am told
Shanghai McCoy
Member
Don't give them any ideas... :banghead:
barnbwt
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IIRC, even 7n6 doesn't legally qualify as armor piercing, same as M855, but the Prez has more free reign to ban imported ammo than domestic, hence why 5.45 got the axe (that, and not enough people complained since they didn't shoot the caliber 
)
That's why it is still legal to shoot 7n6 in AK74 pistols.
)That's why it is still legal to shoot 7n6 in AK74 pistols.
Charles S
Member
I am mistaken? I never said he did or did not use steel core ammo.
There was and is a lot of steel core ammo still around. Just because you no longer see it on shelf's does not mean it does not exist. It is banned from rifle ranges for a reason. A lot of steel core was sold surplus. Don't kid yourself and think it has all been shot.
Schwing
Member
I disagree. I have tons of old WWII surplus 7.62x54r steel core ammo. Part of the reason I still have it is that I can only shoot it at my outdoor range during the winter months. In the summer months, it gets so dry that sparks from steel core ammo can start fires.
It is very destructive to indoor ranges because it damages the backstops. I must not be the only one around who has it. All three of the indoor ranges in my area either require that you use their ammo or allow them to run a magnet over any ammo you carry in. The range in Ogden actually has pictures of the holes in their backstops that someone made with steel core ammo that prompted the policy.
As for a vest being able to stop it... Forget about it. They won't even slow down non-steel core ammo from most rifles.
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Ammo with steel in the jacket fails the magnet test and is often not allowed at indoor ranges, it is also far more common than steel core.
Schwing
Member
True. They don't like the steel jackets either. It probably adds too much effort to their side business of selling range brass.
But jackets and cases are two different things. Not all ammo with steel in the jacket has a steel case too. Granted, most does, but there's plenty of brass case bi-metal jacket ammo out there that indoor ranges often do not allow, despite the brass case.
It could be argued that since not allowing steel jackets is a very effective way of generally avoiding steel cases the policy is done, at least in part, to help avoid steel cases cluttering up their nice brass piles...but a strong magnet can sort that out pretty quickly if you are so inclined.
fireman 9731
Member
Just about all surplus 7.62x54R is steel cored, as well as 5.45x39. There was also the Norinco 7.62x39 that was steel cored. Now, all of these have mild (soft) steel cores that are not "armor piercing" they simply used some steel in the place of lead for economical purposes.
Lets also not forget all of the surplus 30-06 ammo out there that is supposedly AP too.
Either way, its just another knee-jerk reaction by the un-informed populace to try to rationalize terrible events.
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