What has the Nice attack told us now!

shafter said:

Something like this happens so fast that by the time you realize this isn't grandma mistaking the gas for brake the car as already plowed on by you. Guns stop crime, but let's not get delusional here.

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Grandma doesn't drive a giant truck.

shafter said:

Guns stop crime, but let's not get delusional here.

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Too late. we already are.

old guy said:

The only way we can look after our Family, is to be armed in public, because an attack takes place in public!

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Actually, according to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, the majority of homicides in the US occur in the home between acquaintances and/or family members. The best way to protect your family would be to send them out in public to different places so they aren't around anyone that they know.

shafter said:

Something like this happens so fast that by the time you realize this isn't grandma mistaking the gas for brake the car as already plowed on by you. Guns stop crime, but let's not get delusional here.

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Thank you for saying that, shafter.

This notion that guns are the solution to every single incident of terrorism is just ludicrous.
If you aren't aware of your surroundings, it doesn't matter what we carry.

Let's not forget as soon as you start shooting you're likely to look like a terrorist.
I pray I'd have the wherewithal to help people to safety and let the cops face these guys w/ better weapons and training.

45_auto said:

...
Actually, according to the FBI Uniform Crime Report, the majority of homicides in the US occur in the home between acquaintances and/or family members. The best way to protect your family would be to send them out in public to different places so they aren't around anyone that they know.

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I wish that more people used statistics sensibly that way. Most auto accidents happen at low speeds near your home. That means you should drive very fast--to be safe. And far from home.

I agree with post #23 about how quickly things like this happen.

As to post #25, it won't change anything with the anti-gun crowd. They want our guns and they will keep working to get them.

Kendal Black said:

I wish that more people used statistics sensibly that way. Most auto accidents happen at low speeds near your home. That means you should drive very fast--to be safe. And far from home.

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All those statistics are fine and then someone fly's an airplane into a building, shoots up a Christmas party or nightclub, or drives a truck through a crowd.
Statistics on gun deaths spiked in the early 1940's, I think statistics may not be as meaningful in the future until we get this jihad thing under control.

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Note to self...we need a 'tactics' thread for large crowds and vehicular homicide. Im imagining myself in a large crowd, as the group's designated driver, carrying a concealed pistol. Loud music, distractions, confusion. Now a truck comes plowing toward me and the confusion really starts.
I would have, maybe, a few seconds to figure out what is going on and react. At best I dive out of the way. Once the truck is past, I would not be chasing it. Likewise I would not have communication with down stream CCW's. A ccw, katana, ar-15, and krav maga would not be of much use in those seconds. I could, perhaps dive behind barrier or cover enough distance to escape the path of the truck unless the crowd is too dense.


This is a horrible tragedy. I dont think the civilians could be expected to stop this scenario. Authorities at the beginning of the route would need to communicate with authorities down route to prepare for the incoming truck. Whether the bullets came from professionals or responsible citizens. ....there will be cross fire and stray bullets in the crowd.

This is a difficult scenario to stop with tools a civilian has on them at a given time.

I suspect as I also do with Orlando that there will ultimately be evidence of collateral damage inflicted on victims. We need to understand that combatting this kind of evil violence will not be pretty if we are to succeed.

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The only way we can look after our Family, is to be armed in public, because an attack takes place in public! The general public must be ready to fight back, on the scene! And we must carry pistols that, will be able to supply many, powerful rounds, the least you can carry is a 9mm pistol, with at least a 15 round magazine in your pistol. And In my case, a 17 round spare magazine.

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That's not my takeaway. My takeaway is increased awareness. My job is to get me and my loved ones out of harms way and I can do that faster and more effectively running 90 degrees away from the attack or jumping behind solid cover, not trying to engage. This holds true (in my book) whether it is a vehicle attack like this one or a shooter like in Orlando. Unless engaging the attacker is the last option I will choose to avoid and/or evade.

It's been the subject of a lot of threads over the years, and the simple fact is that no hand held firearm will stop a truck.

As for the IDF on leave, no, there are not large numbers of civilians in Israel carrying loaded firearms on the streets. Their gun laws are far more repressive than ours and given the ongoing events there they still don't allow weapons in the hands of the public as a common thing. They only recently allowed off duty IDF above a certain rank to actually carry.

Not much here gun related and this incident is definitely not reinforcement for open carry of military sporting rifles during a celebration of national freedom. If anything it's a lesson learned on being more aware of your surroundings - that truck did travel over a mile and it was still hitting people on the sidewalk at the end.

Taking it out with gunfire was about as effective as trying to shoot down an airliner flying toward the Twin Towers. That is exactly why certain methods are chosen - to increase the odds to achieve an end - and to foster overreaction that almost always causes more provocation and then more retaliation.

The French have their hands full as it is, I don't expect them to start handing out Mini 14's to all their veterans for daily carry.

Tirod said:

As for the IDF on leave, no, there are not large numbers of civilians in Israel carrying loaded firearms on the streets. Their gun laws are far more repressive than ours and given the ongoing events there they still don't allow weapons in the hands of the public as a common thing. They only recently allowed off duty IDF above a certain rank to actually carry.

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I was in Israel in 1971, hitchhiked all around the country. Everywhere i went, in large cities such as Tel Aviv and in small towns, on duty or off duty, all members of the IDF were carrying. In the night club area of Tel Aviv I saw soldiers, male and female, out on dates in uniform, mostly carrying Uzis. They carried 2 magazines, attached at a 90deg. angle, in the gun.

If they're only recently allowing personnel to carry, this is certainly a change from the former rules. At that time I also saw many civilians carry.

One ride I got, an older gentleman gave me and my girlfriend a ride down towards Eilat, a city on the Gulf of Aquba on the Red Sea, opposite Aquba, Jordan. When we got stopped at a surprise checkpoint in the desert, spiked strips on the road, APC pointing it's .50 at us, soldiers with their Uzis in our face, he opened his glovebox for some papers. I noticed a stick magazine in there. When we proceeded, I asked him about it. Said he never crossed the desert without his Uzi, which he pulled out from under the seat.

Armored car guards at that time also carried Uzis, as did civilians pulling night guard duty at kibbutzes.

I don't have exact information (KPH/MPH or how long it took to cover the 2 Km) but I would venture to guess if your standing in a crowd with Jr. on your shoulders watching fireworks, and a truck moving at "high speed" is approaching you (remember 60 mph is 88 feet per second) you would be better off trying to get out of the path than attempting to draw a 17 round 9mm or a 5 shot revolver.

Shooting out the tires?

Modern truck tires? Don't they use stacks of used tires as walls for those "house of horror" live-fire training scenarios? And don't folks using tires as backstops on improvised ranges complain about pistol bullets bouncing back at them?

I thought the modern advice is forget about the tires, go center-of-mass on the engine compartment hoping to ventilate the radiator, cut hoses or wires, knock out generator, fuel injectors or water pump.



"Niece" sounds like someone used voice recognition software

It tells me that unless I have access to a TOW missile, it makes little difference what I carry. Be it a J-Frame, LCP, G19, .357, 10mm... A shot that takes down a moving target in the cab of a semi would be incredibly difficult.

Stopping a big truck or car with a handgun or long gun is possible. But it requires three things: Intimate knowledge of the particular vehicle involved. And the ability to hit the moving vehicles ECM or ignition coil while under extreme duress. And a whole lot of luck. So, while possible, it's EXTREMELY unlikely.

While I agree that being armed in a situation like this (all the time really) is a good idea, it would not have accomplished much.

Situational awareness was stated before. And avoiding large crowds in public. That poster could not be more right. People are generally oblivious these days to what goes on around them. This attack reaffirmed that. Why the driver didn't toss some of those grenades out the window as he was driving is beyond me.

Sad thing is, in an alternate world, had this attacked been stopped by civilians with firearms, or even the police, it would have never made the news.

I agree with the above. I was in Israel soon after the first gulf war and there were a lot of guns carried by gov and civilians.
Wasn't uncommon to see a family at a park or trailhead unloading for a picnic and slinging a SMG or carbine that was issued during their time in service.
Saw young military in clubs with their rifles in a corner with a few keeping watch as the rest were out dancing.
In one hotel in Eilat I used the vault and the room was like a machine gun museum.
My understanding of pistol carry by the public was that they can't carry concealed but most I saw were IWB with a tucked shirt.
Beside the troops that patrolled the old city of Jerusalem it seemed all the rifles were unloaded with 2 mags taped together with one slipped inside the pants.

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I don't think a pistol or rifle can stop a truck...


HB

interesting new piece of information

"While the promenade is typically closed to traffic, Bouhlel reportedly told police he was delivering ice cream to the festive crowd, then gunned the motor once past a checkpoint."

from http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/0...oner-not-overtly-religious-say-neighbors.html

The main lesson for policymakers from the Nice attack is that many methods can be used to inflict great mayhem, other than guns. Therefore, it is wrong to focus exclusively on guns, or, for that matter, any of the particular tools and means used by the terrorists. The focus should be on the terrorists themselves -- guarding against them, or preventing them from becoming terrorists in the first place.

As for being armed as a defense against terrorism, keep in mind that the terrorists will always have the initiative, and can attack at a time and place of their choosing. Needless to say, they will always pick the softest target. By the time an armed person could react, it would already be too late.

AlexanderA said:

The main lesson for policymakers from the Nice attack is that many methods can be used to inflict great mayhem, other than guns. Therefore, it is wrong to focus exclusively on guns, or, for that matter, any of the particular tools and means used by the terrorists. The focus should be on the terrorists themselves -- guarding against them, or preventing them from becoming terrorists in the first place.

As for being armed as a defense against terrorism, keep in mind that the terrorists will always have the initiative, and can attack at a time and place of their choosing. Needless to say, they will always pick the softest target. By the time an armed person could react, it would already be too late.

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Every situation is different. While I agree with the folks who have posted that in THIS case an armed citizen would not likely have been able to stop the terrorist, in San Bernardino the terrorists could have been taken out way before they killed as many people as they did.

I have more confidence in the possibility of a situation like this to be terminated by armed people. There will always be some loss of life but there are just to many opportunities for the police to be present at them all. Another terrifying consideration is the outcome if that box truck was filled with a bomb like the one in OKC or the Marine Barracks in Lebanon.

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Old Guy said:

I just watched a big truck drive down a road into a mass of people, innocently watching a firework display. Driven by a 31 year old Nice resident, of Tunisian heritage. Guns and Grenades were in the cab with him.

He was shot dead by Police? But I saw Camo dressed men (Soldiers?) in the crowd.

The only way we can look after our Family, is to be armed in public, because an attack takes place in public! The general public must be ready to fight back, on the scene! And we must carry pistols that, will be able to supply many, powerful rounds, the least you can carry is a 9mm pistol, with at least a 15 round magazine in your pistol. And In my case, a 17 round spare magazine.

A 5 shot revolver will not do it!

It works in Israel, the IDF, young people, carry their weapons, on leave, in public! We will get used to seeing this.

We here in Florida, go to open carry, Rifles! Pistols concealed. Open the gun clubs to Rifle classes, free, or a reasonable amount, $50.00. When you pass that class, you get waterproof ID. It would be hung on your rifle sling.

A red band across it, with a number. Your concealed pistol, concealed.
The Police seeing this ID know you are trained, and legal.

I have a Steyr AUG, in my car, it never stays outside my Jeep, it lives in the Garage.

My AUG has only to be snapped together, 1 minute. 30 round mag in it, with a sling on it. Once I placed it in a secure spot in my Jeep. I forgot it. But it is ready, where ever I am, it is with me.

Am I paranoid? No, but I will need it maybe, so not having it, is not good.
Not having it in my safe, but having it in my Jeep, is a good thing.

Watching this attack in Nice? Has woken me up!

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Ummm...

Why should I want to hang cards, pendants, flags, bandanas, or other such things on my firearms? And how, exactly, is this really going to let the police know you're "trained and legal"? How is any officer to know you're "trained and legal" without actually stopping you and checking? (Because anybody can forge such simple visual indicators.)

Why should I willingly submit myself to processes which turn my rights into privileges any more than I have to?

What makes you think a 5 shot revolver won't do it?

If you're this paranoid (and yes, you are coming across as paranoid), why does your planning partially revolve around a rifle you have to take 60 seconds to assemble? It's not "ready" in that condition, and further, it's not with you wherever you are unless you're in your jeep.


We each need to make the call whether or not to carry, what to carry, and how to carry. There are a whole host of considerations that go along with this...but the bottom line is that there is no minimum requirement with respect to carrying except to actually carry. And the sky's the limit at the other end of the spectrum.

For example...I could make a case for modifying your vehicle with Kevlar panels in the doors. I could make a case for wearing body armor. I could make a case for only going out in groups with a point man in the lead.

The bottom line is that you cannot be prepared for everything, and you cannot be 100% alert 100% of the time. Body armor, for example, would likely not have helped anybody being run over by that truck, for example. Kevlar panels in the doors of your car don't help with shots through the glass.

If people want to carry, the most important thing is to actually carry...ANYTHING. And be proficient with it, whatever it is. All else is icing on the cake.

I wonder if Obama knows it's easier to rent a box truck than buy a Glock?

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There is no anecdote for human beings willing to kill themselves in the process of killing others. Prevention is near impossible. Soft targets are prolific and the means to kill substantial. The best we can do is to limit the carnage.

Changing one’s ideology in regions that have condoned/encouraged violence for centuries is hopeless.

Somehow the gun is always brought to the forefront as the culprit. Whereas a gun was reportedly used in conjunction with the truck, it will be interesting to still how the politicians/press plays this out.