I.O. Inc vs CIA AK's

I would never buy anything from IO. They have a bad rep on their AKs and I can tell you first hand that their customer service was garbage the one purchase I made from them. They sent the wrong items, then shorted me items and getting it all resolved was a hastle.

I would avoid IO and Century's C39/C39V2 and RAS47.

You're not far off the cost of an N-PAP for the cost of an IO or Century domestic gun. .

Girodin said:

I would never buy anything from IO. ...

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ditto.

Thats like choosing between a tumor and an ulcer.

I'd go with the ulcer.

I think most would agree that the worse of the 2 is the I.o., but century's domestically produced aren't much better. Both use cast pasts where they shouldn't and tend to suffer from premature bold deformation/headspace creep. If you must c39v2 > ras47 > anything I.o.

The c39's redeeming quality is that you can replace the bolt/carrier and have a mostly durable weapon.

You're much better off looking for a Wasr-10 or NPAP or splurging on an arsenal.

Or if you really want to go US, the palmetto offering looks promising.

For entertaining mostly unbiased reviews.

http://www.akoperatorsunionlocal4774.com

Between the two I would go with the Century Arms AK. Bought one as a gift for a friend of mine and even after checking one out very carefully at a gun show still found a hairline crack in the stock after I got it home. Customer service was okay in handling the replacement though they sent me a stripped, unfinished stock and I had to use the parts off the original before sending the damaged one back to them.

Id choose a Ras if I where you. Wasrs aren't being imported, and cost over $600 getting into the $700 range if you can funded one. The NPap has been getting a lot of bad reviews. The Ras47 has gotten good reviews from NutNFancy, MrGunsandGear, James Yeager, etc.

Avoid I.O. Inc like the plague. CAI are better, but not by much. The PAP rifles are heavier and have different dimensions, so accessorizing may be more difficult. Also heard that their materials and heat treating are poor.

I would save up a little more money and look at a DDI. Or, buy once/cry once and get an Arsenal. I have seen some used Norinco MAKs in the $700-$800 range.

The WASRs and the Norincos use to be thought of as sub standard in the AK world. Now , they are pretty good options. I find this funny.

IO's are known to be bad, Rob Ski at AKOU did a 5000 round test on a RAS47 and it did poorly, by the end of the test the headspace had reached dangerous proportions.

I would stay away from both of them. So what if a quality rifle costs a bit more? I firmly believe that you get what you pay for and if I was buying my first AK, I would get a WASR, OPAP or a DDI.

The Ras47 has gotten good reviews from prominent firearms related YouTube channels and blogs, and Rob dropped the Ras47, ran it over with a truck, and did a few more "toucher test" on the same rifle that didn't do perfect in his test. With that said, the NPap that others have suggested you buy in our of the Ras47 failed the same test. The Opap, which is mad by the same company that makes the NPap, was never tested.

Many in the AK community do not like the Ras47 because it lacks a bayonet lug, doesn't come with a cleaning rod, is American made, is made by Century (who they hate), has a cast trunnion, etc, etc. For the money and for anyone who isn't planning on abusing the rifle or shooting so many rounds through it that it ammo alone would cost two to four times the cost of the rifle, it's not a bad option for what you pay IMHO...

Keep in mind that Wasr and Opaps aren't being imported, so they are being sold for a premium if you can find one. DDI AKs cost more and are normally out of stock.

https://youtu.be/3SBIAS6LY1k

https://youtu.be/DUIjjYH4vpo

If a Ras 47 cant even go 5000rds without developing headspacing issues, then it is in no way a good AK, let alone a good rifle. A rifle should be able to achieve at least 10,000rds without major mechanical issues. Was Rob's rifle a lemon? Maybe, but there sure seems to be a lot of Ras lemons...

Rob dropped the Ras47, ran it over with a truck, and did a few more "toucher test" on the same rifle that didn't do perfect in his test.

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So, you really didn't watch the test videos, did you? While he may be tough (not toucher (sic)) on the test rifles, he never ran over the RAS47, not even once.

I did watch all the test videos, and he didn't do anything to the RAS that he didn't do to other rifles.

Forget the fact that the front sight fell apart, the rear sight broke and the stock self destructed. The FACT is that the headspace increased to the point where it was unsafe. This is a VERY bad thing to have happen to your rifle. The bolt and trunnion are soft castings and they stretch and deform to an alarming extent.

Now if you are someone that seldom shoots your guns and/or you really don't care about your face and hands, then the RAS47 is just the rifle for you. If, on the other hand, you want a robust gun that will last your lifetime, stay away from these time bombs.

None of the other testers that tried these POS guns put them through anywhere near as thorough a test. Other rifles that Rob Ski has put through the same test procedures passed with flying colors. Guns like the WASR, Arsenal SLR107 come to mind.

From the tone of your post, I suspect that you bought one of the RAS47 rifles and now are desperate to justify your purchase. If you are happy with it, fine, but don't try to convince others to take the same risk.

Jackal said:

If a Ras 47 cant even go 5000rds without developing headspacing issues, then it is in no way a good AK, let alone a good rifle. A rifle should be able to achieve at least 10,000rds without major mechanical issues. Was Rob's rifle a lemon? Maybe, but there sure seems to be a lot of Ras lemons...

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It's a $500-$600 AK, and 10k rounds is well over $2,000. For a casual shooter, it would take them over a decade if not a lot more to put that many rounds through the rifle...

Next, Century has reportedly sold over 40 thousand Ras47, but I've only seen a small handful of bad reviews. Most YouTube reviews and comments in the comments section from actual owners are positive, while reviews from people who've never owned the rifle are negative.

If the OP wants a high performance AK, that's going to come at a higher price. If the OP just wants an AK to casually shoot, that's affordable, that's in stock, and that he doesn't plan on abusing, then, for the price, the Ras47 should serve him well.

highpower said:

So, you really didn't watch the test videos, did you? While he may be tough (not toucher (sic)) on the test rifles, he never ran over the RAS47, not even once.

I did watch all the test videos, and he didn't do anything to the RAS that he didn't do to other rifles.

Forget the fact that the front sight fell apart, the rear sight broke and the stock self destructed. The FACT is that the headspace increased to the point where it was unsafe. This is a VERY bad thing to have happen to your rifle. The bolt and trunnion are soft castings and they stretch and deform to an alarming extent.

Now if you are someone that seldom shoots your guns and/or you really don't care about your face and hands, then the RAS47 is just the rifle for you. If, on the other hand, you want a robust gun that will last your lifetime, stay away from these time bombs.

None of the other testers that tried these POS guns put them through anywhere near as thorough a test. Other rifles that Rob Ski has put through the same test procedures passed with flying colors. Guns like the WASR, Arsenal SLR107 come to mind.

From the tone of your post, I suspect that you bought one of the RAS47 rifles and now are desperate to justify your purchase. If you are happy with it, fine, but don't try to convince others to take the same risk.

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First off, yes I've watched all the videos, and was mistaken about the Ras. It was the NPap and Wasr that was ran over. I even watched and read as Rob and other owners of popular AK channels bickered over Century Arm AKs. Rob saying they're crap while they, one who has put thousands of rounds through his C39v2 without cleaning it, say that hasn't been their experience. You're over exaggerating about how bad the Century rifles are and others who do have rounds through there's saying that's not the case.

Next, ignoring all the positive reviews from actual owners including myself ( I own Veprs, PAPs, Draco's, and other AKs), were are all the horror stories out of the tens of thousands that have been sold? Where are all the law suits from rifles that blew up? Why does the trusted and popular seller of AK rifles, Atlantic Firearms also continue to sell them?

All just like with the few cases of Glocks and Shields that have blown up, people are regurgitating a small percentage of issues as if it's an epidemic.

Praxidike said:

First off, yes I've watched all the videos, and was mistaken about the Ras. It was the NPap and Wasr that was ran over. I even watched and read as Rob and other owners of popular AK channels bickered over Century Arm AKs. Rob saying they're crap while they, one who has put thousands of rounds through his C39v2 without cleaning it, say that hasn't been their experience. You're over exaggerating about how bad the Century rifles are and others who do have rounds through there's saying that's not the case.

Next, ignoring all the positive reviews from actual owners including myself ( I own Veprs, PAPs, Draco's, and other AKs), were are all the horror stories out of the tens of thousands that have been sold? Where are all the law suits from rifles that blew up? Why does the trusted and popular seller of AK rifles, Atlantic Firearms also continue to sell them?

All just like with the few cases of Glocks and Shields that have blown up, people are regurgitating a small percentage of issues as if it's an epidemic.

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So the problem isn't poor construction, initial quality on the RAS appears to be superlative. The finish is excellent, the accuracy is excellent. INITIAL lockup is tight. The problem is the inconsistent quality of the materials. This thing wears faster than it has an excuse to. The metal is of inexcusably poor/inconsistent quality. If you're going to buy just 1 AK, this one really shouldn't be it... (Which is why I sold mine and bough a WASR)

https://youtu.be/wcoyhwUeNHU

I would place my experience with the RAS47 on the good side. After 500 rounds, I have experienced no trunion wear what-so-ever. However, I have experience slight peening on the hammer and bolt carrier duck-tail. I don't feel I have seen enough with this rifle to give it a yay or nay.

I will say that this is an astonishingly accurate rifle. It is at least as accurate as most of my ARs.

I will be posting a running review of my rifle shortly.

I had a Century SAR-1 (2003 model) that I had to let go during a financial crunch. Of all the guns I have ever sold, I miss that one the most. It was absolutely reliable and fun to shoot, and I even competed in local USPSA style carbine matches with it (running a Gen-II Kobra optic).

Praxidike said:

It's a $500-$600 AK, and 10k rounds is well over $2,000. For a casual shooter, it would take them over a decade if not a lot more to put that many rounds through the rifle...

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The thing is though... a decade passes quicker than you think. I'm surprised that it's been that long since I bought my WASR-10/63 (in 2006-7 when they cost about $300). I really don't know how many rounds are through it but I bought thousands of cheap corrosive surplus ammo. (I will guess 5000) It was my favorite range toy for years and countless buddys shot it too.

I'm quite confident it could go on for many more decades when I pass it down to heirs. It's not pretty but functionally it is in great shape.

First off, yes I've watched all the videos, and was mistaken about the Ras. It was the NPap and Wasr that was ran over. I even watched and read as Rob and other owners of popular AK channels bickered over Century Arm AKs. Rob saying they're crap while they, one who has put thousands of rounds through his C39v2 without cleaning it, say that hasn't been their experience. You're over exaggerating about how bad the Century rifles are and others who do have rounds through there's saying that's not the case.

Next, ignoring all the positive reviews from actual owners including myself ( I own Veprs, PAPs, Draco's, and other AKs), were are all the horror stories out of the tens of thousands that have been sold? Where are all the law suits from rifles that blew up? Why does the trusted and popular seller of AK rifles, Atlantic Firearms also continue to sell them?

All just like with the few cases of Glocks and Shields that have blown up, people are regurgitating a small percentage of issues as if it's an epidemic.

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My friend, if you are happy with your RAS47, that is all that matters. It is true that I have no experience with them and I intend to keep it that way. I have, in addition to other AK's, a Polytech AK47S spiker, a milled Norinco, a Valmet and a Galil. I feel it would be hard to do better than any of them and I see no reason to buy what I consider to be a light duty rifle with questionable metallurgy.

Please understand that I am emphatically not a Century hater. I was hoping that they would make a domestically produced AK that was the equal of those made overseas. So far, in my opinion, they have fallen short of that mark. For roughly the same money, a better rifle can be had. Even if you have to spend a few more $, why not get a better, proven product?

I also have zero problems with cast parts, experience with Ruger products tell us that a properly made and hardened cast part is as strong as any other. Unfortunately, the cast parts that Century uses on their rifles seem to be rather soft. If it was just a matter of some non stressed part (front sight ears, rear sight adjuster) failing, I would be less inclined to be critical.

But when it is a part of the rifle that is taking all the stress of an explosion, I am not inclined to be so charitable. When the bolt and trunnion of the rifle that Rob Ski used was tested for hardness, they were very soft. Was that particular rifle an anomaly? I don't know and neither do you without more testing of a larger sample.

I do know that Century has released version 2 of the RAS47 that is supposed to have better trunnions and bolts. That tells me that they found that there was indeed problems with the first run of them and they have taken steps to rectify the issues. If so, kudos to them for trying to fix the problem and I sincerely hope it works out.

AKOU is currently testing a PSAK47 (Palmetto State Arms) and I am hoping that it will last with no issues throughout the test as that would give us a viable alternative to foreign made AK's.

When there are good used Saigas, veprs, yugos, and for a few dollars more bulgarian arsenals, I would never buy either of the brands suggested.

Avoid IO like the plague. There is nothing more to say about this.

CAI imported rifles are OK (OPAP, NPAP, WASR), but avoid the RAS-47, which is built of substandard materials and overpriced for what it is.

The crux of many of the popular Youtube testers is that they don't have enough time and ammo to test guns extensively, and still maintain the ability to be constantly testing new guns and making new videos. They are for more a test of features and initial impressions than they are a test of durability. Even at 5000 rounds, that still isn't a true longevity test for a service type gun. A gun shooting it's cost in ammo several times with only a moderate amount of replacement parts and no safety issues is par for the course, not some unreachable goal.

Praxidike:
Except for "AK Operators' Union", I never found any videos depicting internal wear/stress for any AK derivatives after approx. 3,500 rds.
The other Youtube channels/videos, i.e. Nutnfancy/Mr. G/TheMil. Arms Channel seem only to describe brand-new guns. It's very easy for a brand-newish gun to do very well.

AK Op. Union's depiction of premature internal wear on the RAS etc was the reason I searched for the newer WASR 10s. But with their retail prices (a month ago in Memphis) not too far from a Mak 90, it was an easy decision.
At least with Mak 90s you have all original, matching components and very nice triggers.

So, the RAS47 is a great rifle "kit".
Replace everything except the receiver, barrel, bcg, fcg, gas tube, springs, and receiver cover.
What a bargain. Where can I get one? (J/K)