7mm-08 thoughts

There are some downsides to the 6.5mm calibers. In particular, the bullet makers to some degree give up on making large game bullets for them. There's no .264 caliber Nosler partition or accubond with a sectional density anywhere close to the .284 175gr partition for example. The higher SD 7mm bullet will give you a much better chance of an expanded pass through on an elk or moose.

Hornady makes a 160gr RN in .264 and a 140gr bullet in 6.5mm will go clean through a deer from stem to stern how much more penetration do you really need.

A 140gr 6.5 partition has a sectional density of .287 the 7mm 175gr is .310.

The 160gr RN from Hornady has a sectional density over .320.

The interlock isn't a very good big game bullet - they're really designed for deer not elk. There is actually one decent 6.5mm big game option available in the US that I know of, but it's obscure - Hawk makes a 160gr round nose that holds together. Still, we're talking round nose, which is a serious detriment at range - a BC of less than .3 vs > .5 for the 175gr partition. That huge BC is what makes the 7mm-08 a 300+y elk cartridge when the parent .308 isn't.

That said, 7mm has the clear edge even for close range - I can buy the ideal bullet for it down at Sportsman's any time I want.

.... the 7mm-08 will do everything a .308 can do and it will do it better?

What, for example?

I'm not aware of anything it'll do better.

My first deer rifle I bought and actually used (I bought a lightweight 30 Win Mag in highschool that I promptly sold) was a Savage in 7mm-08. In my opinion it is the best of the medium power deer cartridges! It is a true short action and everything about it is in moderation. Ammo can be had for dirt cheap at Cabela's (last year I bought hornady soft points for about $16 a box). I also reload for it and find my rifle really likes old fashioned soft points which perform excellently on deer are the velocities 7mm-08 puts them out at. I love the Sierra GameKings in 140g.

Bart B. said:

.... the 7mm-08 will do everything a .308 can do and it will do it better?

What, for example?

I'm not aware of anything it'll do better.

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Shoot the same weight bullets with a higher BC or shoot lighter bullets with better BC.

Macchina said:

Shoot the same weight bullets with a higher BC or shoot lighter bullets with better BC.

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That's like saying that the .308 is clearly better than the 7mm-08 because it can shoot the same weight bullets faster. It's just a function of bullet diameter in the same case, but what actual difference does it make at normal hunting ranges?

Bart B. said:

.... the 7mm-08 will do everything a .308 can do and it will do it better?

What, for example?

I'm not aware of anything it'll do better.

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Higher BCs, higher sectional density (and thus more penetration), more energy at range. That was easy.

Given the same bullet type the 7mm-08 will have a better B.C., better sectional density, and less recoil when compared to the .308.

i was afraid someone would bring up the 25-06 as that i hedged back and forth on for quite some time before settling towards the 7-08

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Big fan of the 25-06 here, owned one for 38 years. I've hunted groundhogs to black bear with it and can say it never failed me. The .25 has a fair range of bullet weights from 75 gr to 120 gr. Also own a .243 and while I like it I can't compare the 2 as being equal. I'd take the 25 for deer or larger every time.

I notice many always bring up the .243 with a 105 gr bullet. How many manufacturers produce the .243 in a twist that will handle that bullet? My model 70 won't handle it.

Lots of choices for you so pick which ever one you like.

Yes, the 7-08 will shoot the same weight bullets with a higher BC or shoot lighter bullets with better BC. At the expense of shorter barrel life.

.308's will shoot 240-gr. bullets with a G1 BC of .711. Are there any 7mm bullets that heavy or have a higher G1 BC?

You're lost Bart. The heavy .308 hunting bullets don't have a BC anywhere near 0.7. For example, the first .308 partition with a SD over .300 to compete with the 175gr .284 is the 200gr .308. It has both a lower BC (.04 less) and about a 100ft/s lower practical achievable velocity.

Every time you compare apples to apples, you'll fine the .308 loses. Not by a huge amount, but it loses.

Shorter barrel life lol that's funny. A .308 has a barrel life of 8000-10,000. The 7mm-08 has got to be in the 7500-9500 range. And a .308 shooting a 240gr bullet you might as well throw a brick. The velocity that thing will be shot at would be counter productive.

Also Berger makes a 195gr 7mm bullet with a G1 bc of .755. It marketed as a hunting bullet BTW.

And the 7-08 with the same powder capacity could shoot that higher bc bullet at equal or even faster speed than the 240gr. 308 load.

CarJunkieLS1 said:

As a handloader the 7mm-08 will do everything a .308 can do and it will do it better.

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This simply is not true. I'm not arguing the merrits of the caliber but simply necking down a case does not make it magically special. All things being equal, the larger caliber will push the same bullet weight faster. The 7mm08 with 160 grain bullets are about the only bullets that are ballistically better than the 308 and the difference is practically insignificant.

At one time, I had identical Savage rifles in 7mm-08, 308, and 243 win. I tried for years to find an accurate load for the 7mm-08 and couldn't. Personally, I couldn't feel much difference between the recoil of the 308 and the 7mm-08. I kept hearing it was lower in recoil, but it was fairly easy to find accurate 308 loads that recoiled less than the 7mm-08 loads. The 243 Winchester was a big difference in recoil, and one of the most accurate rifles I have owned.

I'm not lost. Nor ignorant. Just informed.

.308's have shot very heavy bullets in long range matches bucking the wind better than any lighter bullets from the same case. David Tubb, for example, has done wonders shooting Sierra 250's out at 2150 fps through a 1:8 twist barrel.

Competitive shooters switching from the .308 to 7-08 quickly noticed about 20% less accurate barrel life. The .260 Rem has 30% less life. When they moved to the .243 Win, barrel life was half that (50%) of the .308's 3000 rounds for best accuracy. That's the barrel life Sierra gets testing 30 caliber bullets from .308 Win cases.

Llama Bob said:

You're lost Bart. The heavy .308 hunting bullets don't have a BC anywhere near 0.7. For example, the first .308 partition with a SD over .300 to compete with the 175gr .284 is the 200gr .308. It has both a lower BC (.04 less) and about a 100ft/s lower practical achievable velocity.

Every time you compare apples to apples, you'll fine the .308 loses. Not by a huge amount, but it loses.

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Reloading opens a lot of doors when it comes to getting the most out of your cartridge. The 175gr. 7mm-08 isn't a commonly available off-the-shelf load. In fact it is on the high end of what can be done with the 7mm-08. If you wanted to take the very highest end .308 loads and compare you'd find that the 7mm-08 will fall short of the .308. If you want to compare apples to apples, I suggest comparing either highly-available, off the shelf loadings of both or compare high-performance hand-loads of both, but not intermingle. I did significant research, including spending a lot of time with a ballistic calculator, comparing the .308 to other cartridges prior to entering into the .308. I was very interested in the 7mm-08 as a contender and I could not find any evidence that the 7mm-08 out performs the .308 by any practical margin, or even most of the time on paper. Especially if you are comparing factory loads. The .308 far exceeds the 7mm-08 when it comes to availability of loaded cartridges and is available in several loadings at any store I've ever been to from back-woods Wyoming gas-station to Ace Hardware store. Claims of more penetration with the 7mm-08 are talking about on paper sorts of calculations and there is no animal on earth that will tell a difference between being hit by a 7mm-08 and a .308, at any range. Even looking at trajectory, there is virtually no practical difference between the two when working with cartridges that are formulated for similar purposes. I also challenge anyone to find a noticeable difference in felt recoil when dealing with cartridges built for similar purposes.

Orcon said:

This simply is not true. I'm not arguing the merrits of the caliber but simply necking down a case does not make it magically special. All things being equal, the larger caliber will push the same bullet weight faster.

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This is where people get confused. To achieve the same result in terms of game suitability with the necked down cartridge you don't need to drive the same bullet weight. You need to drive the same SECTIONAL DENSITY (which determines penetration) and bullet construction. It's easier to achieve high sectional densities in smaller diameter bullets.

The 7mm-08 is in fact superior for all hunting applications to the .308. They cover the exactly same game (varmints to elk/moose) and the 7mm-08 does it at somewhat longer range and with a somewhat better chance of a pass-through shot and good blood trail due to higher SDs.

There is a point where the returns from a non-varmint hunting perspective stop with necking down any parent case due to lack of bearing surface. For the .308 case, it lies between 7mm and 6.5mm - the 7mm-08 can drive a 175 grainer as fast as the .260 can drive a 160 grain, but the .308 can't drive a 200 grain as fast as the 7mm-08 drive a 175.

What this says is that for a short action big game caliber, the only way to improve on the 7mm-08 is to increase case diameter an capacity (a la WSM etc.).

The barrel life concern is non-existent for hunting. By the time you've shot the many hundreds (or thousands!) of animals it takes to lose hunting accuracy in any of these calibers, the cost of a new barrel is trivial compared to all those tags, travel, processing, ammo etc.

ColoradoMinuteMan said:

Reloading opens a lot of doors when it comes to getting the most out of your cartridge. The 175gr. 7mm-08 isn't a commonly available off-the-shelf load. In fact it is on the high end of what can be done with the 7mm-08. If you wanted to take the very highest end .308 loads and compare you'd find that the 7mm-08 will fall short of the .308.

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Really? Frankly I don't believe you. Here's the challenge: tell me the recipe you want to use for your perfect .308 elk load. The requirements:

- no ridiculously temp sensitive powders (RL-17, RL-26 etc.)
- you must use a premium bullet (partition/a-frame/bonded)
- sectional density over .300 to ensure pass throgugh
- you must retain at least 1200 ft/lbs of energy at your max range
- you must exceed the manufacturer's min velocity for expansion at max range

Tell me what your formula is, and we'll run it through QuickLoad and JBM along side my 7mm-08 load, and see which one has the greater max range and flatter trajectory.

My 308 shoots 200 gr ELD-X at 2455 ft/s, I could go faster if I had a longer barrel. How fast are your 175s going?

200 gr ELD-X
Hornady case
WLR
41.5 gr AA-2495
COAL 2.860

Bart B. said:

I'm not lost. Nor ignorant. Just informed.

.308's have shot very heavy bullets in long range matches

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Stop right there. We're not talking about matches.

You are in fact lost.

I've ran the #'s time and time again...the 7mm-08 is better than the .308 in every way. It has bullets with higher bc and better sd. To equal the sd and bc of a 7mm bullet the .308 diameter has to add bullet weight. The added weight equals slower velocity...

And as far as ammo availability that's an argument that doesn't hold water. Do you really think anyone would take a once in a lifetime hunt and think "I'll just buy ammo when I get there" NOBODY would you will be prepared and take it with you.

Orcon said:

My 308 shoots 200 gr ELD-X at 2455 ft/s, I could go faster if I had a longer barrel. How fast are your 175s going?

200 gr ELD-X
Hornady case
WLR
41.5 gr AA-2495
COAL 2.860

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You're over max OAL so that's not a .308 and using a non-premium bullet - bad choice for elk. But for comparison sake at 2.8 OAL with the 175 partition or weldcore and with a similar AA single base powder, I get 2590 out of a 22in barrel and that's an accuracy load in my rifle to boot. As said before, the 7mm will always have the edge, even if you cheat and make the .308 longer

What's cheating? And who the hell says you need a "premium" bullet for elk? I've killed plenty of elk with core lokt bullets.

2495 is admittedly not the best powder for heavy bullets, picking up some Power Pro 2000-MR today. I also shoot a 20 bbl so I'm probably 75-100 fps slower than what it could be with a 22 or 24 inch barrel.

CarJunkieLS1 said:

I've ran the #'s time and time again...the 7mm-08 is better than the .308 in every way. It has bullets with higher bc and better sd. To equal the sd and bc of a 7mm bullet the .308 diameter has to add bullet weight. The added weight equals slower velocity...

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Yup, anyone who's actually bothered to give it a try has found the same thing you did - the 7mm-08 always wins. It does require handloading, and for large game a fast twist to handle the long bullets. But it wins. You can do basically the same thing with .260, but the lack of a heavy (160gr.) partition bullet there is a major gap. There's nothing to prevent such a bullet from being made, but it isn't. You can use the 160gr. hawk or weldcore instead, but both are hard to find (especially the hawk) and the weldcore doesn't scale down to smaller game as well as the partition.