"Combat" distances in active shooter situations?

IMHO a full size duty pistol is the only thing that's going to reach out to 25yrds or more. Given that from what I've read most on here probably carry a pocket or at most a 3" barreled gun it's unlikely those distances would be obtained in a real world scenario, or even in practice.

Me personally my full size 4.5" gun I can reach out and touch someone at 25yrds+. But my smaller 3" for me is only good out to about 30-40ft. And I suspect even smaller guns are even less.

That's one of those "Yeah, Right!" situations.

My carry pistol is a Ruger LC9S Pro. It's a little bitty light weight single stack carry pistol.

Can I hit a man sized target at 25 yards? Better believe it.

I will gladly bet money I can poke holes in a standard silhouette target at 200 yards with it, too. After a minute or two to figure it out that's not a hard shot.

But wait a minute... We aren't talking about shooting at a stationary target.

In a place like a mall or anywhere out in public where there's somebody out there with a gun trying to kill everybody I'm not going to be trying to pot shot at long ranges.

I'm going to run.

My pistol isn't there to shoot a killer at long range. It's there to get an attacker off ME.

If getting a wall between me and the shooter is possible, it's a far better idea and after that I'm going to keep on going.

I'm not a super hero there to save the day.

I'm a citizen that wants to go home to my family.

An Air Force cop at Fairchild AFB about 20 years ago stopped an active shooter from a reported 70 yards.

Good Ol' Boy said:

IMHO a full size duty pistol is the only thing that's going to reach out to 25yrds or more.

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A portion of my indoor practice session includes firing at 25 yards (outdoors up to 100 yards)with my pocket carry guns. I can deliver effective fire with an I-frame Terrier and even my .25 TPH- it just takes practice, good technique, and preferably a weapon with available single action trigger mode.

Yes, by far your most likely threat is a close range, but regardless of carry platform, EVERYONE should make extended range defensive shooting a part of their training regimen.

I've taken enough game out past 100 yds with handguns from 22-44 to have confidence in shots that far. Practice and understand the gun and ammo and you'd be amazed what you can do. I'd feel real good about hitting where I aimed with my 2.5" 19 or 66 if your talking short barrels, same with a semi auto. DAO and it would take a lot more concentration.

All my range practice with a handgun is at 25 and 50 yards. I figure if I can draw and fire, and hit a man-sized target at those ranges, I shouldn't have any problems closer up. Unless I'm wearing minimal clothes that pretty much mandate a subcompact for concealment, I carry a full size 1911, with 180 grain hot loads.

The distances in the Westgate Mall attack were considerable at times. I don't know the engagement distances, but the people going in were exchanging shots with pistols and AKs with the terrorists off and on. There were a number if detailed accounts with many pictures after it happened. If anyone is interested, I may be able to find them.

According to my training (and it was what we taught).... Most gunfights for cops are at less than 7 meters distance (sometimes at real bad breath ranges...). Yes, you need to train out to 25 meters but for handguns close quarters is your most common threat.

Nothing that we did years ago in police training really addressed the disparity between rifles (an active shooter) and pistol armed officers. If I were ever to get back into police training, that's where I'd do my research and try find out what other outfits were doing...

In a practical sense, confronting someone armed with a long gun (and a bit of skill) is very bad business with a sidearm. The best you can hope for is to go to cover -then withdraw until better armed individuals can respond...

Good Ol' Boy said:

IMHO a full size duty pistol is the only thing that's going to reach out to 25yrds or more. Given that from what I've read most on here probably carry a pocket or at most a 3" barreled gun it's unlikely those distances would be obtained in a real world scenario, or even in practice.

Me personally my full size 4.5" gun I can reach out and touch someone at 25yrds+. But my smaller 3" for me is only good out to about 30-40ft. And I suspect even smaller guns are even less.

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I think that depends more on training and aptitude than it does on the gun, up to a point at least. I've seen Travis Haley hit a man size silhouette target at 450 yards from standing with a Glock 43. I'm quite certain that consistently getting accurate hits at 25-100 yards would be very doable for someone that can do that.

In a practical sense, confronting someone armed with a long gun (and a bit of skill) is very bad business with a sidearm. The best you can hope for is to go to cover -then withdraw until better armed individuals can respond...

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I'm glad there are still people that don't feel that way. Time is of the essence in such situations, the longer anyone waits to intervene, the more people are likely to be lost.

I think that depends more on training and aptitude than it does on the gun, up to a point at least. I've seen Travis Haley hit a man size silhouette target at 450 yards from standing with a Glock 43. I'm quite certain that consistently getting accurate hits at 25-100 yards would be very doable for someone that can do that.

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Agree. Abdul Haji didnt have much real training, just the overwhelming desire to try to get his brother out, then ended up staying 5 or 6 hours clearing people out of stores, exchanging shots with the terrorists, and helping keep the shooters bottled up in the market. He had a pistol, with one magazine. I'm glad he wasn't paralyzed by the "Oh no, I don't have enough gun and I suck beyond 20 feet" mindset.

There were a number of others involved, he was the person that become most known. There were also a number of news accounts, this was one I googled up and hadn't seen before.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/abdul-haji-westgate-mall-nairobi-kenya-2013-interview

Shooting at distance isn't the ninja skill or impossible task some seem to think. Its sad to see people purposely handicap themselves by not being a fairly well rounded shooter and refusing to practice shooting at distance.

I'm sorry some would want to dismiss it as "heroics" to step up and do whatever one can in bad times, and truly glad some are willing to risk their personal safety to help others in dire need and to do what needs to be done.

An Austin Texas PD Sgt made a one shot stop on an active shooter with a 40 S&W at a measured distance of 312 feet while holding the reigns of two of the departments horses in his off hand.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/12/06/austin-cop-sure-shot-stopped-crazed-gunman.html

lemaymiami said:

In a practical sense, confronting someone armed with a long gun (and a bit of skill) is very bad business with a sidearm.

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I don't know about that. A scum bag loser who has never shot a real gun beyond video games leaves the basement and buys an AR-15 to get even with the world is going to be challenged to the max by a competent pistol shooter.

There's a ton of variables that go along with a active shooter besides yardage. Proximity to the shooter of innocent victims and what's behind the active shooter are just a couple. I have a friend in Nevada that insists his instructor for his CWC permit told them anything after 15 yards is considered murder and not SD. I doubt this is true, but I think I understand the point he was trying to make. A CWC permit gives us the right to protect ourselves, it does not make us cops. Too many posts and threads of this type bring out visions of folks saving the world against multiple heavily armed attackers in crowded venues with their CWC weapon. Reminds me of a old Aerosmith tune.........

buck460XVR said:

I have a friend in Nevada that insists his instructor for his CWC permit told them anything after 15 yards is considered murder and not SD.

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And that is the heart of the issue- failure to adapt tactics in response to potential real situations.

I have hit a popper at 100 yards with a Kahr CW380. Lots of misses prior to the hit, but most of the misses would have hit somewhere on the body. It really is feasible to hit a man size target at that range with a pistol at the range. In the real world with adrenaline and movement? Maybe...

Vic Stacy in Texas. Hit a rifle armed murderer several times with revolver while gunman was trying to shoot responding officer. Distance reports vary, but it was generally figured to be 50-65 yards.

https://www.policeone.com/Officer-S...oots-trailer-park-gunman-saves-Texas-officer/

It's important to keep in mind that aside from those rare individuals who have complete control of their nerves during high stress situations most people won't be able to come close to the accuracy they can achieve at the range. Now add a crowd of people panicking, jostling, and maybe even tackling you when they see a gun in your hand, you end up with a realistic effective range of a few yards at most.

The advice I give to people is:
Get you and family out of the area as fast as possible. Don't do something foolish like grab a rifle from your trunk and go back in. Don't go hunting.

If retreat isn't an option then hunker down where you have some cover and get your back to something. If there is no cover then make yourself a small target. Prepare to fight if the threat offers a clear shot or comes towards you. Begin tactical breathing to get your heart rate under control and be ready to engage.

Naturally, if you're armed and happen to be a few feet or yards from the shooter when he opens fire it would make more sense to engage than run.

Don't underestimate the chaos and don't overestimate your ability under pressure.

The most important thing is to keep yourself and family alive. You aren't responsible for those who choose to be sheep.

Always the what ifs, followed if, if and if. Day to day my most likely threat is being hit by a vehicle as I walk the roadways.

When we do the weekly grocery shopping at Walmart that could be problematic I could be caught in an exchange of gun fire between CHP holders mistaking me for a terrorist threat but then eating lunch a fast food venue could be problematic also.

So "Combat" distance in active shooter situations it would be a matter of feet as opposed to yards as I exit the " Killing Box".

You aren't responsible for those who choose to be sheep.

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I'm truly glad many of our ancestors didnt have that perspective, wed still be subjects of the Crown today, and have been plowed under in the wars and other day to day challenges that have befallen our forebears.

It reminds me of the mindset present in the current rage of needing "safe spaces" whenever unfortunately overprotected, meek young people hear or see anything that challenges their perceived world view or emotional (or heaven forbid physical) safety. They seem unable to rise to the challenge of the moment, seeking only to retreat into their own emotional cocoon.

You could choose to return fire from an active shooter at even a few hundred yards - think about a outdoor concert with the shooter up on the stage.

Even an only moderate freehand shooter may be able to make benchrest shots of great precision. If you're going to shoot at 100 yards, brace the gun against a post or barrier, cock the hammer and take your time (relatively).

A small revolver is capable of a very high degree of accuracy - much more so than a small auto. It isn't about barrel length or even sight quality. The ability to make a long shot is going to come down to:

- Understanding how much, if any, bullet drop is involved. (9mm pistols with 6 o'clock hold sights will shoot to POA at 100 yards.)

- Having a controllable trigger. It doesn't get much better than a cocked revolver.

- Having the gun sighted in. If you only shoot at 7 yards, you might not notice that your POI is 1" left, but that's 14" left at 100 yards.

- Have a reasonable degree of mechanical accuracy. If you're carrying one of those M&Ps that won't make 6" groups at 25 yards, it might be pointless to shoot a lot further than that.


You don't have to have high visibility sights, because you have more time to acquire a sight picture. This is when you use the crisp top edge of the sights, not the dots.

Guy B. Meredith said:

"Combat" distances in active shooter situations?.

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There have been engagements from 7 feet to over 200 yards.

One USAF guard engaged with a M9 a nutjob over 70 yards away. Way back in the '20s (1920s that is) a Border Patrolman engaged a shooter who was across the Rio Grande (shooting from the Mexican side) and the BP guy used a .38 revolver at well over 100 yards.

The nutjob at the County Courthouse in Tyler Texas (using a MAADI AK-47) was engaged at truck width distance by Mark Wilson with a .45 1911. Let's say that was 4 yards!

And in Austin Texas the Texas Tower nutjob shooter, who used rifles, was engaged at well over 200 yards by locals, as well as cops, using their deer rifles (the nutjob, Charles Whitman, shot people as far away as 500 yards.)

So train for very close range and very far range. Hope that helps!

Deaf