Pistol Caliber Carbine- bullet velocity

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My iron sights (plastic) are zero'd at 50 yards. Drop to 75 is only about 3" with my 124 gr 1200-1225 fps load in the 16" Kel-Tec. I find the 50 yard zero works great for a 16" carbine for close and farther away.
 
Ran a test using red dot and powder pistol in pistol and carbine to measure the increase in velocity in the slower burning power pistol over the faster burning red dot.

Without going over published data. My chronograph results showed 9mm pp loads in excess of 1500 fps and some reaching in the mid 1500's.

Published the results in a thread a while back.

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I have a Hi-Point 40 cal carbine and my 180 grain loads with Longshot will push 1350 fps at the max charge. I think the 40 cal responds well to slow powders and barrel length.
 
I would use a slower powder if there is published data, slow powders may not achieve the proper pressure in a blow back action.
I had ok results with Blue Dot in a Camp 45 with 230 gainers but poor results with Accurate #7, for my Camp 45 Unique, Accurate #5, and VV-n340 have a good burn rate for 185-200 grainers
 
Blowback action:

You'll get cleaner brass but won't gain velocity in a long barrel with the faster powders, and you'll get filthy brass with increased velocity with the slower powders.
 
Wreck-n-crew: what were you using for those velocities? I assume 115 or less, possibly under 100.
 
joneb said:
I would use a slower powder if there is published data, slow powders may not achieve the proper pressure in a blow back action.
I had ok results with Blue Dot in a Camp 45 with 230 gainers but poor results with Accurate #7, for my Camp 45 Unique, Accurate #5, and VV-n340 have a good burn rate for 185-200 grainers
Click to expand...
As long as the load has the velocity it will be enough to cycle. Slower powders don't bleed energy. They continue to push.

What is needed to cycle can be summed up in recoil energy Anyhow. If the bullet is moving fast enough within the first few inches the recoil energy will be plenty.



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I second what Timsr said. I find that coated lead bullets go about 7% faster than a jacketed bullet of the same weight given the same powder charge and seating depth inside case.
 
Blue Dot

I'm considering picking up a pound or 2 of Blue Dot to experiment with; however, I've heard that it can be kind of 'spiky', pressure wise, especially at higher loads. I currently load 9mm and .45, so I've tried to get powders that will work with both calibers. I currently have, IIRC, W231, Power Pistol, WST, WSF, Bullseye, Unique, Longshot and Titegroup. Maybe one or two others. My current go-to loads are 124 gn RN lipstick (Acme) @1.100 OAL with 4.9 gn Power Pistol; and 200 gn SWC lipstick (again Acme) @1.250 OAL with 4.8 gn Titegroup. It just so happens that I have 300-400 115gn Hornady XTP left that I got free from Hornady when I bought my progressive, and I picked up 250 124gn Berry's Hollow Base FP thick plate
to play with. That, and a couple thousand lipstick left. I'm looking at trying Longshot, Power Pistol and W231 to start with, unless I can find some Blue Dot locally.
 
Starr1der said:
Wreck-n-crew: what were you using for those velocities? I assume 115 or less, possibly under 100.
Click to expand...
Power pistol and 115gr coated were reaching the mid 1500's. I believe. I have to go pull the thread up.

I used nothing under 115gr. My own cast coated bullets were 120gr tc.

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Thank you, sir! Going downstairs to load some now. Unfortunately, my wife broke her ankle 6 weeks ago, and I'm having a hard time getting the time to get to the only range relatively nearby that I can use the chrono at. BTW, Caldwell has a smartphone/tablet app that is AWESOME! When I get a chance, I'll upload an Excel spreadsheet to give an idea of how it looks.
 
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Range time

Finally got to the indoor range, at least. 124 gn coated shows good accuracy, although I can't use the chrono indoors. I can say that I get 1035 fps with these loads in my 4" XD using 4.8 gn of Power Pistol @ 1.100 OAL. I also bought a pound of Blue Dot at Cabela's ($27!!!) but I didn't have time to get to my normal powder shop; it's 100 miles 1 way. I picked up a couple hundred 115 gn Acme RN coated and 500 Extreme 115 RN plated. I've loaded 100 Acme 115 coated, 20 each 6.0, 6.3, 6.6, 6.9 and 7.2; I want a good data set for XD vs carbine. BTW, don't know if I mentioned, I have a TNW Aero Survival Rifle in 9mm. I am planning to buy the conversion kit to .45, and maybe later to either .40 or 10mm. Also plan on having at least another 100 test rounds, maybe W231 or Power Pistol, as well as some of the plated bullets. I'm interested to see whether the coated bullets are faster than the plated ones.
 
Interesting thread. I'm moving to a place place right now. I was tinkering with RMR 95s and Longshot/HS-6 and look forward to trying it again and putting them through my new CZ Carbine.
 
I did some testing out of the Scorpion, a 7.5 inch barrel opposed to the 4.5 inch P-09 barrel.

With Accurate Arms #7 I saw between a 100-115 FPS increase.
With Accurate Arms #2 I saw between a 50 and 75 FPS increase.

Small lots of testing ammo, run on a hot range with a ProChrono.
 
Thanks for the data; I don't use Accurate powders (yet); mostly Winchester, Hodgdon & Alliant. Don't know if you've seen ballisticsbytheinch.com; although they use commercial loads, some interesting stuff. I've got some test loads with Blue Dot behind 115 gn RN, both Hi-Tek coated and plated, and plan to have another set of both using W231 before I hit the range. Will post at least summaries of all next week. I figure the only way to attach a sample of the Caldwell chrono app output is to zip it and attach it; it's either an Excel spreadsheet or a .csv file; I'll figure out how to attach both.
 
Thanks for the data; I don't use Accurate powders (yet); mostly Winchester, Hodgdon & Alliant. Don't know if you've seen http://ballisticsbytheinch.com; although they use commercial loads, some interesting stuff. I've got some test loads with Blue Dot behind 115 gn RN, both Hi-Tek coated and plated, and plan to have another set of both using W231 before I hit the range. Will post at least summaries of all next week. I figure the only way to attach a sample of the Caldwell chrono app output is to zip it and attach it; it's either an Excel spreadsheet or a .csv file; I'll figure out how to attach both.
--Found a better way; I will attach as a PDF, everyone should have access to a reader and no chance of having a hidden macro. This will give some idea of what the Caldwell app is capable of; works with both Android and iOS devices; however, uses an ordinary phone jack so will NOT work with the new iPhone 7, as the decided to remove the headphone jack.

One thing- below PDF was shot with Springfield XD (4" barrel). When I shoot the carbine, I will be using the XD as "control" for it. 4" being one of the most common 'service' pistol barrel lengths.
 

Attachments

  • Acme RN 124gn Lipstick Power Pistol-b.pdf
    337.6 KB · Views: 7
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Finally got to range!

Took Tuesday off to get out to the range and sset up the chrono. I shot somewhere between 550 & 600 rounds, around half between the XD and the ASR carbine. Lots and LOTS of data to comb through, but a quick look says that at least the higher loads, you can expect 250-300 fps increase with the 16.25" barrel (I include the .25 for accuracy; hereafter I'll call it a 16" barrel :p) For instance, using Blue Dot, 115 gn coated 'lipstick' RN bullet; at 6.9 grains, I got 1135 average of 10 rounds with the Springfield XD 4" versus 1445 average of 10 with the ASR 16". At 7.2 gn I got 1171 and 1465 respectively. I also have Extreme 115 with Blue Dot that I haven't looked at yet, and also some Extreme loaded with W231. Will be a couple of days until I get all the data crunched, but
a quick look seems to confirm (at least at higher end loads) the 200-300 fps. I'm not sure how to post these though; I may start a new thread and link back to this one; it seems that a 'stale' thread doesn't get much attention, and there was some interest in this one. I imagine that hard data should generate more interest; I try to 'combine' the results from the various load combinations into one spreadsheet and put them into an easy to read sheet; however, it does take me some time to do so.
 
Here's a taste of the carbine vs the pistol; carbine (16.25") first:
115 Acme red RN Blue Dot All-ASR
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance
9/27/2016 10:34 115 acme RN red Blue Dot 6.0 ASR 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
9 1260 0 0
8 1332 0 0
7 1203 0 0
6 1291 0 0
5 1192 0 0
4 1195 0 0
3 1225 0 0
2 1173 0 0
1 1286 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1239.67 54.76 1173 1332 159
9/27/2016 10:40 115 Acme RN red Blue Dot 6.3 ASR 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
11 1296 0 0
10 1295 0 0
9 1275 0 0
8 1373 0 0
7 1344 0 0
6 1318 0 0
5 1292 0 0
4 1278 0 0
3 1283 0 0
2 1329 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1308.3 32.05 1275 1373 98
9/27/2016 10:43 115 acme rn BD 6.6 ASR 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
11 1403 0 0
10 ERROR 2
9 1409 0 0
8 1344 0 0
7 1405 0 0
6 1373 0 0
5 1389 0 0
4 1425 0 0
3 1383 0 0
2 1353 0 0
1 1369 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1385.3 25.87 1344 1425 81
115 Acme red RN Blue Dot All-ASR
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance
9/27/2016 10:45 115 Acme RN red Blue Dot 6.9 ASR 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1455 0 0
9 1424 0 0
8 1392 0 0
7 1416 0 0
6 1466 0 0
5 1489 0 0
4 1435 0 0
3 1469 0 0
2 1446 0 0
1 1476 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1446.8 30.14 1392 1489 97
9/27/2016 10:47 115 Acme RN red Blue Dot 7.2 ASR 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1492 0 0
9 1447 0 0
8 1451 0 0
7 1455 0 0
6 1485 0 0
5 1497 0 0
4 1472 0 0
3 1434 0 0
2 1465 0 0
1 1478 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1467.6 20.77 1434 1497 63

And the Springfield XD (4")
115 gn Acme red RN Blue Dot-XD
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance
9/27/2016 10:24 115 Acme red RN BD 6.0-XD 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
8 1010 0 0
7 884 0 0
6 982 0 0
5 924 0 0
4 893 0 0
3 956 0 0
2 975 0 0
1 943 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
945.88 43.88 884 1010 126
9/27/2016 10:26 115 Acme red RN BD 6.3-XD 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
9 972 0 0
8 965 0 0
7 1114 0 0
6 1007 0 0
5 1046 0 0
4 1013 0 0
3 1050 0 0
2 1002 0 0
1 951 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1013.33 50.8 951 1114 163
9/27/2016 10:28 115 Acme red RN Blue Dot 6.6-XD 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1108 0 0
9 1084 0 0
8 1100 0 0
7 1036 0 0
6 1026 0 0
5 1007 0 0
4 1042 0 0
3 1094 0 0
2 1097 0 0
1 1120 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1071.4 39.68 1007 1120 113
115 gn Acme red RN Blue Dot-XD
Created Description Notes1 Notes2 Distance
9/27/2016 10:29 115 Acme red RN Blue Dot 6.9-XD 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
10 1086 0 0
9 1146 0 0
8 1122 0 0
7 1181 0 0
6 1206 0 0
5 1102 0 0
4 1131 0 0
3 1078 0 0
2 1162 0 0
1 1139 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1135.3 40.75 1078 1206 128
9/27/2016 10:32 115 Acme red RN Blue Dot 7.2 XD 0
# Temp 61F FPS FT-LBS PF
9 1169 0 0
8 1176 0 0
7 1158 0 0
6 1155 0 0
5 1203 0 0
4 1182 0 0
3 1131 0 0
2 1176 0 0
1 1194 0 0
AVG StdDev Min Max Spread
1171.56 21.65 1131 1203 72

Looking at the averages, I'm getting about 300 FPS more (give or take) from the carbine- I did NOT expect that much, but it is consistent pretty much all along the spread.
Any thoughts are welcome; and I have data on Extreme plated 115 and also Extreme with W231; not as wide a difference, but still quite a bit higher than I expected.
 

Attachments

  • 115 Acme red RN Blue Dot All-ASR.pdf
    432.1 KB · Views: 2
  • 115 Acme red RN Blue Dot ALL-XD.pdf
    286.3 KB · Views: 1
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