9 mm 147 gr Help Needed

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DC_art

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I could use a little help figuring out what my problem is loading 147 gr 9mm rounds. My normal process is 2 passes though my LNL AP (all dies are Hornady except the FCD and lock out die). The first pass I resize, prime, and bell the mouth. The second pass, I drop the powder, check the powder, feed a bullet with a Hornady bullet feeder die and tubes, seat (with no crimp), and finally crimp with a Lee FCD. The original load is a Berry’s 147 gr FP with 4.3 gr of BE-86. While most of these passed the plunk test cleanly and slickly, between 10 and 20% would not. Of the ones that failed, some would seat all the way, while others wouldn’t. I tried coloring one of the worst with Sharpie, but see nothing definitive. There appeared to be minor rubbing towards the base of the round. This was all normally done with mixed brass and sometimes lead to a pistol that had was not fully in battery, but was locked up tight.
So, the troubleshooting began: I wanted a different bullet profile and tried Xtreme 147 gr HP. This produced at least a 10% failure rate. So, I sorted me some brass and am working with Remington brass at this point. I resized and primed 100 cases. They all passed the plunk test with zero resistance. I then belled the mouth. Then I set up the seating and crimping dies from scratch. Then, manually feeding the bullets, I made 100 rounds. The COAL is 1.08 and the mouth measures .376. The results were better, but I still had 4% fail.
When I use the original process above on 40 S&W, EVERYTHING passes the plunk test. At this point I don’t know what to do next and would love some suggestions and (hopefully) wisdom.

Thanks,

Art
 
Possible slight case bulge? I noticed some of my 9mm handloadswith 147grn mbcs, all run on a single stage, would have the bullet very slightly off center. rolling them on a flat surface wasnt even enough to pick some of them out but looking at a light reflecting on the case would show it, i never figgured out exactly what was going on but the rounds mkostly chambered, fired, and hit what.i was shooting at so i never investigated further.
 
It is so hard to troubleshoot a ammo problem with words alone. Pictures usually help a lot but I will try to help.

Why are you seating the bullet so deep into the case? You are using a heavy large bullet to start and then forcing it deep into the case. The brass at the bottom of the case is thicker so it's possible you have a bugle near the bottom of the case because of your seating depth.

Why are you using a 1.08" OAL? I don't load 147gr bullets because I see no reason to use heavy for caliber bullets but I seat 124gr bullets between 1.125" and 1.115" most times. I usually seat the bullet as long as possible within SAAMI limits and insuring proper function. Try seating your 147gr bullet out to 1.142" and see if that functions and passes the plunk test. If not seat a little deeper and try again. The max COAL is 1.169".

Just a guess with what you told us. I hope it helps.
 
ArchAngel,

Thanks for the suggestion. It does make sense to me and you may very well be correct. I may have made the problem worse, trying to correct it. Tonight, I'll pull the bullets out of some of the ones that don't plunk, resize them, and try them again with the longer COAL.

I'll try to post an update tonight.
 
DC_art said:
ArchAngel,

Thanks for the suggestion. It does make sense to me and you may very well be correct. I may have made the problem worse, trying to correct it. Tonight, I'll pull the bullets out of some of the ones that don't plunk, resize them, and try them again with the longer COAL.

I'll try to post an update tonight.
Click to expand...
I also suggest before you try seating longer with the used bullets use new bullets. The pulled bullets might already be squeezed or deformed. Just start fresh and then deal with the problems when you find the fix.
 
DC_art said:
I resized and primed 100 cases. They all passed the plunk test with zero resistance.

There appeared to be minor rubbing towards the base of the round ... lead to a pistol that had was not fully in battery, but was locked up tight.
Click to expand...
If 100 resized cases passed the barrel but 10% of loaded rounds failed, with short 1.080" OAL, you may be causing the bullet base to bulge the thicker walled part of case towards the case base and causing the round to not fully chamber and lock up the slide.

Just because Alliant load data indicates minimal 1.080" for 147 gr FP bullet does not mean you must load at that length. I usually use 1.155"-1.160" OAL with 147 gr bullets - http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...wderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=38&cartridge=23

1. Determine the max OAL by loading some dummy rounds (no powder/no primer) at 1.160" (with .377"-.378" taper crimp) and see if they drop in the barrel freely with a "plonk". If not, incrementally decrease the OAL (say by .002") until they do and spin without hitting the start of rifling - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=506678

2. Then I would feed/chamber the max OAL dummy rounds from the magazine by not riding the slide. If they don't reliably feed/chamber, I would incrementally decrease the OAL by .005" until they do and this would be your working OAL - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=8864541#post8864541

3. Using working OAL, conduct powder work up from 4.2 gr (10% reduction from 4.7 gr max) in .2 gr increments until you have reliable slide cycling/spent case extraction/ejection. Then increase powder charge by .1 gr towards max charge of 4.7 gr until you have smallest shot groups. Of course, you can stop anytime you have reliable slide cycling/spent case extraction/ejection and acceptable level of accuracy.
 
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I think I may have been chasing the problem in the wrong direction. Making the problem worse rather fixing it. Tonight should tell...
 
Most likely you are not always operating the full stroke of the tool so the Lee FC die isn't taking out all the bulges in a shell that has them and criimping as tightly. The purpose of the FC die is to take any out of spec sizing down to maximum SAAMI diameter.
 
One thing about the LNL if the shell plate gets loose it can cause the case not to get resized correctly. Usually happens around the base.

Also make sure your resize die is kissing the shell plate.
I have both Hornady and Lee 9mm dies. I prefer the Lee decap/resize die as it sizes tighter then the Hornady.

I use the FCD lightly but if it is run all the way down to the base I would think you would be ok to there.
Of course there is the very bottom part of the case that does not get sized even with the FCD.

I haven't used one but I here Bulge busters are needed for some .40 brass shot in certain chambers

Have you tried pulling a bullet on the problem rounds to see if the case will chamber minus bullet?
I would also measure a couple bullets, load them, run the round thru the FCD and pull the bullet to see if any part of it is getting resized by the FCD.
Is the problem happening with any specific headstamp brass?
Any issues with the bullets being oversize?

Seating the 147s deep could cause an issue in the middle of the brass but a properly setup FCD should take care of that.
It would be sort of a pain but if you are getting 5-10% failure just run some case thru the sizer and FCD (no primer/powder/bullet) and see if they chamber. OPPsss missed cases were ok minus bullets:eek:
If they don't it's a case issue if they do then something with the bullet is causing the problem.
Bullet dia/ seating depth, seated crooked etc.


Curious to hear what it is when you get it figured out.
 
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Gentlemen,

I just started from scratch with three cases. It took seating down to 1.09 before all three would plunk. I had worked down before and found someone else used 1.08.
 
If the loaded cases fall in the barrel freely with a "plonk" and spin without hitting the rifling, can you feed/chamber them from the magazine?

Perhaps when the nose of the bullet slams on the feed ramp, the bullet is seating deeper and bulging the case?
 
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BDS is incorrect. You can pass pluck test and have the round jam the mags.

Several things come to mind.
Your dies are not set correctly.

I remove the dies and back off the lock rings. I used RCBS or Redding. Lee lock rings suck. I pull out the instruction, weird I know, and still the dies precisely per instruction. I test that stage until I am dead on. Lock the die and test again. Move to the next stage and repeat the process with only that die on that stage. Rinse and repeat.

Set the seating die to MAX of the SAMMI specs. I do not crimp at this point. I plunk test the round. If it passes plunk then I move to crimp.

I use the lightest taper crimp possible and the pluck test after..

After I am done with about 20 round I cycle the rounds through the gun.

I show 147's exclusively in 9MM and use as close to max lenght as the chamber will allow. but sometimes the profile and ogive of the bullet chages your
setup.
 
kitsapshooter said:
BDS is incorrect. You can pass pluck test and have the round jam the mags.
Click to expand...
That's correct. That's why I suggested OP first determine the max OAL then the working OAL.

If the max OAL of 1.080" works as working OAL but still locks up the pistol by not fully chambering, that could be from bullet seating deeper during feeding and bulging the case.
 
:eek: I tested the resize issue with a loose shell plate. (not on purpose) and found at least in my case it can cause an issue.
I was just depriming/resizing a bunch of cases not loading. Ended resizing them all again. (before I put a lock washer on the shell plate screw.)
Can't say if it has happened to anybody else maybe just me.


that could be from bullet seating deeper during feeding and bulging the case.
Click to expand...
Excellent thought.
 
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Shellplate tilt/deflection can affect resizing and bullet seating (even with tight shellplate) to decrease the amount of case base that's resized and increase OAL variation. Because of this, if initial OAL adjustment was made on progressive press with single case, many reloaders will recheck the OAL when reloading with all stations full.

When I feel increased resistance to resizing on the ram lever, I will check to see if I can see daylight between the bottom of resizing die and the top of shell plate. If you do, it means resizing die did not resize the case base all the way down and likely your OAL will show variation.

To address these issues along with priming issues and being able to check/clean primer pockets, some reloaders (like Walkalong on his LNL AP) will resize brass separately and reload with resized/primed brass. For my match loads, cases were resized separately and checked with barrel then hand primed. Using resized brass not only decreases OAL variation but will make progressive reloading silky smooth with less effort.

Not sure if this is the OP's problem as it was posted 100 resized cases all passed the barrel before being loaded.
 
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Dudedog said:
bds said:
could be from bullet seating deeper during feeding and bulging the case
Click to expand...
Excellent thought.
Click to expand...
If all the cases are being resized and bullet's bearing surface is not hitting the start of rifling at 1.080" OAL, then it could be bullet seating deeper and bulging the brass and I asked the OP to measure OAL before and after chambering from the magazine. The short working OAL has bottom of bullet base deep inside the case where case wall starts to thicken and I figure bullet being seated deeper will bulge the brass even more.

And OP could also check for shell plate tilt/deflection to ensure there's no daylight between resizing die and shell plate.
 
BDS,

I made a round for your chambering test:

It measured (more than once) 1.177 before chambering. After chambering (and forcing the slide back) the round measures 1.179, so it grew! :mad:

I mistakenly made a round just under 1.18 with the Xtreme FP bullet, and it plunked fine. The difference was I did not flare this case. I'm going to go back out and experiment with this length, with and without flaring. I just wanted to answer your question first.

Thanks all, for all of the help, keep it coming.

Art
 
This is my understanding of the 9mm cartridge and since I'm not an expert, please correct me if I'm wrong.
The 9mm is not a straight walled cartridge but tapered. The mouth is narrower than the base. Therefore, the deeper you seat, the more bulge is created. I load all my 124 and 147 grain bullets to 1.125 and this seems to work for me.
I load on a Dillon 650 and use Dillon dies. I always flare enough that the bullet is not shaved by the mouth and remove the flare with the taper crimp die.
 
DC_art said:
BDS,

I made a round for your chambering test:

It measured (more than once) 1.177 before chambering. After chambering (and forcing the slide back) the round measures 1.179, so it grew! :mad:

Art
Click to expand...
Just a note, you do realize you are upset about two one-thousands of an inch, right?

That is 0.002" which could even be a mistake in measuring. That is just about half the thickness of a human hair, very thin for sure.
 
Archangel,
I'm not upset, just really surprised. I consistently measured before and after and was surprised to see it "a hair" longer. I expected some setback.

I'll have to try the Berry's FPs in another 9mm and use the Xtreme, in this apparently tighter chamber.
 
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