Question about cylinder sticking with reloaded 38 spl

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Bullseye

Bullseye

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I would have posted in handguns/revolvers rather than handloading because I suspect it may be the revolver that is having a problem and not the handloads but I could be wrong.

I have a Ruger Service Six that I have not had any issues with until recently shooting a couple dozen reloaded rounds.
I almost always use Unique but picked up a can of HP-38 and loaded 4.5 gr under a 125 gr copper plated RMR HP.
The rounds appear to be correct. Nice looking loads secured with a moderate factory crimp in mixed head-stamped brass.
I also loaded a few with 4.9 gr Trail Boss, same bullet. Same problem.

The problem is that the cylinder seems to get stuck and the hammer will not pull back after firing a couple/few in the six shooter.
With a little wiggling of the cylinder while pulling back on the hammer at the same time, I can get it to rotate.
I was thinking it could be the cases are being pushed back toward the rear of the cylinder after firing from pressure and preventing the cylinder to rotate.
Maybe due to the crimp? Maybe due to the pressure? Perhaps the case mouth is expanding and just slightly locking the spent case to the rear so I can't cycle the revolver.
I almost always shoot my revolvers in single action.
They do all eject easily and do not look unusual after they are shot and I can get the cylinder open. However the cylinder release button and opening of the cylinder is tight as well. The push rod is not loose.
It won't move ( unscrew ) in or out when turning and the cylinder spins quite freely. It is clean as can be.
It dry fires perfectly in DA or SA just as it should.

My question then is ... could my good looking loads be at fault due to pressure or too much crimp?
Thanks for reading, I tried to describe best I could.
 
Look at the primers, my guess is that the loads are a little hotter than they should be and some of the primers are backing out. The more the cases have been reloaded the better the chance that the primers are backing out, especially if hot loads were being used each time.
 
When a revolver is fired, the primers back out, the case then slides back against the recoil shield and reseats the primer. Often light loads do not allow the reseating of the primer and binding up the cylinder rotation (the primers are rubbing against the recoil shield). When this binding happens, try and remove a case(s) and check to see if the primer protrudes. If the primers aren't flush, try cleaning the cylinder chambers and possibly increase the load. I have only had this happen once with a .44 Magnum and I've fired .38 Specials so light the bullet barely gets outta the barrel...:p

Also, when the cylinder binds, see if you can determine if a primer has backed out and is binding on the firing pin. Heavy loads may extrude primers into the firing pin/firing pin hole. While I've never had this happen, it is possible...
 
mdi said:
When a revolver is fired, the primers back out, the case then slides back against the recoil shield and reseats the primer. Often light loads do not allow the reseating of the primer and binding up the cylinder rotation (the primers are rubbing against the recoil shield). When this binding happens, try and remove a case(s) and check to see if the primer protrudes. If the primers aren't flush, try cleaning the cylinder chambers and possibly increase the load. I have only had this happen once with a .44 Magnum and I've fired .38 Specials so light the bullet barely gets outta the barrel...:p

Also, when the cylinder binds, see if you can determine if a primer has backed out and is binding on the firing pin. Heavy loads may extrude primers into the firing pin/firing pin hole. While I've never had this happen, it is possible...
Click to expand...
That was also my first thought. I would check that first.

As for excessive pressure, probably not. You said in your post the empty cases all fall out freely. If high pressures were binding the cylinder I doubt the cases would eject easily and freely.
 
I am having the same problem with a S&W 686 plus, 7 shot. The cylinder occasionally binds up when the next round (loaded or fired), seems stuck back in the chamber, against the recoil shield. I can push the round forward, and everything returned to normal. this happens randomly with 38 spec. and 357 mag. rounds in single action. All cases eject with normal primers, and no sticking or hanging up. I have tried everything to fix this and concluded it is NOT the action, ejector rod, or the ammo.
With a 7 shot "L" frame the cylinder holes are quite close together and with a .010+ cylinder to barrel gap, I am guessing blow-by is causing the cases to move back and leaving crud between the chamber and the case, causing it to stick back and bind.
Any thoughts ?
 
Tonight I may go out back and shoot some of different loads and take a closer look. I am also going to pay attention to the headstamps on the brass.
If my dependable Unique loads work without a hitch and this batch of HP-38 does this again then I'll know it's the ammo.
I am also going to try this in another revolver and see if it is limited to the Ruger Service Six.
My little doggie don't like shooting so maybe I can get the wife to take him for a ride.
 
mdi said:
When a revolver is fired, the primers back out, the case then slides back against the recoil shield and reseats the primer. Often light loads do not allow the reseating of the primer and binding up the cylinder rotation (the primers are rubbing against the recoil shield). When this binding happens, try and remove a case(s) and check to see if the primer protrudes. If the primers aren't flush, try cleaning the cylinder chambers and possibly increase the load. I have only had this happen once with a .44 Magnum and I've fired .38 Specials so light the bullet barely gets outta the barrel...:p

Also, when the cylinder binds, see if you can determine if a primer has backed out and is binding on the firing pin. Heavy loads may extrude primers into the firing pin/firing pin hole. While I've never had this happen, it is possible...
Click to expand...

Good point.

You can duplicate the backed out primer by chambering a primed empty case (NO powder, NO bullet) and firing it. I have done it a few times. :evil:
 
I had the same issues with my ruger sp 101 i found that i had some crud under the cylinder / star after i did a real good cleaning all was good
 
OK ... thanks guys. I am back from the backyard and the wife and dog are back too.
I loaded 6 of the HP-38 in the Security Six and again it was sticky but I got through this cylinder without forcing anything terrible.
I then shot 6 Unique loads. No problem.
Then shot 6 more HP-38 and it was just a little sticky.

Then I shot 6 HP-38 in this Rossi .357. No problems.
again, no issues and again, just fine.

Back to the Security Six and it is warmed up a bit. No problems.
Kept shooting as you can see and it's all good now.
I was thinking once it got warm it was better. I also thought maybe the Security Six likes a little heavier load of powder. It always works fine with Unique but the sticking Trail Boss and the HP-38 was something new.
I will check for something under the star. It didn't look odd to me but that's a good idea.
It's downstairs and the brass is tumbling and the revolvers will get cleaned up either tonight or tomorrow.
The brass is scorched a bit but no primer issues that I can see. The Ruger firing pin strikes a hair off center, the Rossi hits the center of the primer.
Image in attachment.
Maybe I better just stick with the Unique loads for the Ruger.
 
Looks like you might have some high primers in the zip-lock. Check your primer height by placing a finger nail across the case and pull the nail across the primer. If your nail catches on the primer it is too high.

Have you changed primer brands? They vary in hardness, diameter, height. Makes them seat differently.
 
Yes I had some Winchester primers there. I can't stand using them but that's all I could find on loading day. I much prefer CCI over all I have tried.
I had some difficulty seating these and pulled quite a few and tried a second time.
I should have just tossed them.
Yes, I agree some don't look so good in the bag but they are seated. Maybe a fraction are a little flattened in the pocket. Good eye. I was afraid I might get caught there. :rolleyes:
Rassamfrassam Winchesters!
 
Since the shortage I haven't been picky about the brand. Currently have about half a case of Wolf and have to eat my Wheaties to seat em.
 
The rounds with the scorched brass are not heavy loads as they did not seal to the cylinder wall well when shot. Were those the ones with the HP38? You could try blacking the heads of 6 of the trouble rounds and fire them. This should show you the trouble areas. I also think light loads with the primer backing out or dirty under the star. Also you said light crimps. Could the bullets be moving under recoil and tying up the cylinder at all?
 
The brass with the soot near the mouth of the cases is showing low pressure signs. Did you check those primers for being pushed out? Your charge is also low for a 125gr plated bullet. Hodgdon lists a starting charge of 3.8gr HP-38 which you are well short if with a 3.5gr charge.

It's not the powder or the gun, it's the load. No reason to go back to Unique, just load up 18 rounds with at least 4.0gr HP-38 and you will be fine.
 
ArchAngelCD, I loaded these with 4.5 gr HP-38. You may have just read that wrong which I understand. I checked Hodgdon and my Lyman book again.
I use cast bullet data with these copper plated bullets and can safely lean toward the max load data since they are plated. I still load below that.
Since these are 38 spl. There's still room for 38 spl +P loads and I am still under that.
For BULLET WEIGHT 125 GR. CAST LRNFP starting load is 3.8 gr HP-38 and maximum load is 4.8 in Hodgdon data and Lyman starting load for
W231 ( same as HP-38 ) is 3.9 gr HP-38 and maximum load is 5.1 for a 125 gr JHP. No data for a cast 125 gr bullet.
On the can of HP-38 there is no 125 gr bullet data.
So I am good at 4.5. 38 spl +P is 5.4 gr.
I actually reloaded these last night and a bunch more at 4.6 gr without worry.
I was very careful seating primers as well.
I used up the rest of those stinking Winchesters and have 40 CCI primers in others.
All are looking good.
These two pistols get cleaned up good this afternoon and when I get a chance, I'll give the Ruger another whirl.
attached images some CCI on plate and WIN primers in cup
 
The rounds with the scorched brass are not heavy loads as they did not seal to the cylinder wall well when shot. Were those the ones with the HP38? You could try blacking the heads of 6 of the trouble rounds and fire them. This should show you the trouble areas. I also think light loads with the primer backing out or dirty under the star. Also you said light crimps. Could the bullets be moving under recoil and tying up the cylinder at all?
Click to expand...

If the blackened ones are the HP38, I'm also going with light loads, possible primers backing out, and blowby pushing cases back and sticking them there. Warm up your load a little bit and a little tighter crimp should make your case expand and seal better.
 
make sure you are sizing the case all the way. a bulge in the base of the case can cause this problem.

murf
 
Check your firing pin bushing, if your revolver has one. I have a Smith 625 that had a recessed bushing which locked up the wheel so tight I thought I was going to send it back to Smith with a couple of live ones in it. Replaced bushing and it is fine (really fine) now...
 
You can see I did take a picture right after the last session.
Lots of carbon. Which is unusual for this revolver. I don't see anything wrong with the bushing
( if that's what this is? )
 
I don't factory crimp any revolver loads. All get roll crimped. Hold the bullet a few milliseconds longer and let the pressure build, stop the case from moving so much.

Maybe? I haven't used any plated bullets for revolvers.
 
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