How much safe is enough?

I'm debating the same issues. Does your future home have a security system? Ours does and that is the only reason I'm considering something other than the Sturdy Safe I've been looking at. Part of me says if I'm protected against smash and grab I may be OK, but the other part says if I'm wrong it was a false savings.

I'm curious what others may say.

I use an 11 ga liberty. It weighs 1000 lbs empty and is anchored into the concrete with redhead studs. I probably have another 500 lbs of ammo inside it. Overall, it's larger than a typical refrigerator.

It won't tip or move. Someone would have to spend good money on power tools to cut it open.

Fort Knox has a better door, but the body is the same, and the price is a lot more.

Stealthfixr said:

is a 11-gauge wall Liberty safe enough?

Click to expand...

That seems to be what most RSC bodies are. Have you looked at AMSEC? I think their fireproof fill adds strength to the safe's body of similar thickness and might be priced in between.

This vehicle lock box and bracket are 11GA. While this is considered heavy for that application (most are 16GA and 18GA), I would consider it light for a home safe. I do like the heavy steel that Sturdy uses, just not sure on the fire protection wool.

I'm thinking about the future, and planning ahead. My next home will be equipped with a heavy steel door attached to a reinforced steel and concrete wall forming essentially my own personal bank vault. It's expensive, but gives you cubic yardage rather than cubic feet. This setup could also easily serve as a tornado/hurricane/blast shelter for me and my family to survive a dangerous event in. No I'm not thinking TEOTWAWKI I'm thinking realistically. Storage of personal treasures and protection put together is more sensible than having a dedicated area for each.

It's a tough call, with most of them guys who know what they are doing are going to get into it. Most will stop the druggy smash/grab.

I bought good ones but not great ones. Almost like life insurance, if I knew I was going to die next month I would buy a LOT of term so the fam was set. However, paying 30 more years for term and I'm still alive may be seen as a waste to some.

So, assess your situation. Alarm system, how much you're gone, how often, neighborhood, etc and buy what makes sense to you.

I own a Fatboy Jr. and feel confident the opportunistic smash and grab folks can't defeat it. They rarely expect to find a safe and carry no tools of sufficient capability to do so. I was/am more focused on fire resistance and acts of nature. Plan on bolted one to the floor as it will tip forward when the door is opened. I don't store ammo inmy safe since I have documents that I want protected from fire.

Stealth;

What's your priority? Thermal protection or burglary protection? Keep in mind that the time/temp figures of almost any RSC manufacturer are produced for their benefit to aid sales. Pyro 3000, BTU test, Omega Labs, or Bob's Backyard BBQ hellfire test, you won't find the test parameters online & the salesman won't know either. It's just about impossible to make an apples to apples comparison when you don't know what metrics were used to make the advertising claim.

It's a sad fact that no RSC that I know of can meet any of the series of Underwriter's Laboratories tests. Those test parameters are published & considered by insurance companies to be a minimum for good protection in most cases. Trouble is, now you're out of your budget comfort range & into real safes.

Your solution may lie in being very careful about where you buy your house. Low crime neighborhood within a half mile of a professional fire department station. Then go for the basic alarm system & dog of good size.

I'm rural & therefore do have a Graffunder. But I also understand that it's not for everybody. Might take a look at the AMSEC BF series too, but personally, I'd pass on a Fort Knox.

900F

Stealth;

If you're close to the fire station and take the rest of the precautions concerning burglary, then the point to look for in a purchase may be door to frame fit. If you've watched the video "Security On Sale", you've seen what happens when you buy sheet metal construction with a sloppy door fit. The knock on that video has always been that the RSC gets flopped on it's back & there are no space restrictions on the "burglars". But keep in mind that the video itself was produced as a sales tool, not as a how-to for thieves. Customers will sit through that video, but if the safe were upright & bolted it'd take maybe ten minutes to get in, and the customer in the store won't sit still for that length of time. Nonetheless, the thieves would get in.

If you can find an RSC with good door fit and a plate steel frame for the door to lock up behind, buy it.

900F

I'll add, get a safe/RSC that is lots bigger than you needs or expected future needs. Capacity listings by the manufacturers are also greatly over stated. You would probably only get half the number of long guns in the box as the capacity rating claims.

• Is burglary, fire, or both of highest importance?
• How much goes in that safe? (the dollar amount plays in...you don't have to answer as there are guide online)
• Will this safe have things in it other than guns that are of value?
• How much fire protection do you want?
• What types of items in the safe will you want to protect from fire most?
• Do you want a safe that can survive a sledge hammer or axe attack?
• Do you want a safe that has any protection against a powered tool attack?
• Do you plan to put the safe on a ground floor?
• Do you need a nice cosmetic finish?
• If the safe weighs over 3,000 pounds, is this a problem?

I do not believe a safe with 11 gauge walls is a good choice in most instances if burglary protection is desired. A hammer or a fire axe can easily penetrate the safe, and as soon as there is a hole in it the process of widening that hole is stupid easy because there just isn't enough armor. Yes, it may stop some attacks, but we are talking about .12 inches of steel between the bad guy and your stuff...that's less than half of a B-rate, a quarter of a C-rate, and around a tenth of a TL-15 (the entry grade of high-security safes.)

It is my opinion that you can get a real safe for less than most gun safes by purchasing a used security safe. Gun safes are generally defined by cosmetic enhancements, visual appearances to that of security safes, and efforts to make the safe appear more secure than what it is. Security safes generally have plain paint, plain interiors, and lack cosmetic enhancements. A used model may need a new paint job, and you will have to do the interior on your own. However, that door on a security safe is actual steel and not that "composite" garbage seen with most gun safes. This option takes a little hunting, but it is very doable and you can save a fortune. I think for flexible buyers wanting both value and burglary protection, this is the cheapest route.

An exception to that rule is arguably Graffunder's offering. They have a cosmetic finish so nice that some owners describe them as the finest piece of art in the home, but there are zero compromises made in regards to security. Their use of multiple plates and high-density concrete makes even their entry-level Bravo a formidable piece of hardware and the concrete they stuff in 'em will do some nasty things to tools (and potentially the person behind the tool.) If your house burns down, you can count on them. So you can't go wrong there, but they are expensive and so a long term investment.

I like some of the Fort Knox products, but my issue is price. The higher end Fort Knox and Liberty products are priced on the same level as an entry-level high-security gun safe like the Brown HD. Where as most of the Fort Knox and Liberty products of similar pricing may not even be B-rate in terms of build, the Brown HD is a TL-15. It is a very basic looking product, but heavily armored with outstanding fire protection. The HD uses a single steel plate and dense concrete.

Another unusual maker is Sturdy Safe. They have very few cosmetic embellishments, but their base models have enough armor that someone can bang on it all day with hand tools. You also get a good lock instead of the not-great-to-garbage that comes with many gun safes. You get quite a lot for the money, and they will build safes up to B-rate and C-rate specs.

It sounds like you are aware of many of the selling gimmicks used with gun safes to try to make them look like real safes. For example, they use their "wrapped composite doors" so the door appears to have the same kind of armor of a safe-safe and several methods to make the side walls look thick. You've likely noticed how few gun safe makers have cutaways of their cross sections, and I argue this is because no one would want to buy them if they saw what [isn't] inside of them.


(Actual) Safe



Gun Safe (the rest of the wall's construction will not provide any additional protection...this plate is it.)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FycV7PdcB4g
It's just my opinion, but this is why I think going up in armor a little bit is ideal even if the primary protection is just for smash and grabs. The little bit more invested will provide more comprehensive coverage, in my opinion.

This has been a helpful discussion. I'll purchase a safe later today. Most likely a Sturdy Safe. Even with a security system, I'd rather be safe than sorry.

CDK8, I've been trying to find a used safe for several years. I live in a mid-sized city and they just are not available. Wish they were.

Fella's;'

Just a note on the picture of the safe cross section provided by CDK8. What's shown is a C rate Graffunder. The plate that the decal is on represents the door. That door plate is one inch thick. The plate that's behind it, the one the concrete butts up to, is the 3/4" thick frame. When that unit is locked up, the bolts are behind two solid plates of steel totaling 1.75 inches. You can't get a credit card in the door seam, which means you can't get the tip of an effective lever in there either. What's not shown is that there are also not one, but two, intumescent fire seals in the door area. They swell when heated, providing very good interior protection from the gasses of a fire that can absolutely ruin scope coatings, stamp and coin collections, and other valuable documents.

I'll also say that while a Graffunder is in no way inexpensive, one may not be as costly as you might think. Some of the numbers I've seen thrown around on this forum are inaccurate by thousands of dollars.

900F

I'm a fan of the Liberty safes and to me the most important aspects are 1) bolted down; 2) not visible to strangers/visitors; 3) fire protection for non-firearms materials.

Most any decent safe that is bolted down will keep the quick B&E guys out of them...if someone is determined and has the time & tools then nothing will keep them out.

Also, when you buy get one that is at least 2x the capacity of what you think you need...that will delay the purchase of another one for a few months.

Stealthfixer,

First, thanks much for your service! I retired after 28 years from a crazy yet wonderful (looking back...LOL!) AF career myself.

I was in your shoes several times, going from locked metal cabinets to cheap 20 min fire safes. I did MUCH research and decided on a Liberty Lincoln 35. I was looking hard at the Franklin level (like the Fatboy), but in the end, the bells and whistle upgrades I wanted came standard with this Lincoln series.

http://www.libertysafe.com/safe-lincoln-safes-ps-5.html?tab=specs

I ordered mine with an electronic lock. I have never had an issue with my electronic locks on any of my safes before. They are not perfect, but they are an acceptable risk for me...

http://www.deansafe.com/combination-dial-versus-electronic-safe-lock.html

I do not have this safe bolted down. At 800+ lbs empty + another 100 lbs or so in contents, I am confident it's not a grab and run deal.

Liberty has an outstanding warranty on an outstanding product. And mine came with free, in home delivery. I admit I was planning to bolt it down originally, but after watching the two professional safe movers efforts and gear delivering it, I simply put a few 1000 round cases of ammo on the floor of the safe, loaded my guns, valuables, records, etc., and called it good.

Only mod I've done to the safe is installed a set of rifle rods, which I love.

The Lincoln line came with a "safe alert" module, which is basically a motion detector. Every time the door is opened, I get a text message. So if we are away and someone is messing with the safe, I'm alerted immediately. No cost to it...runs on batteries and works via wifi.

Liberty also offers discounts to active duty military, so my best advice is to at least check them out if you have a store near you.

Best wishes!

Stealthfixr said:

cdk8, burglary protection, yes. Question is: how much is enough? Even a Graffunder can be cracked by the right person and equipment. Nothing is invulnerable. I don't have a $100k collection and never will. I might be buying a Wilson Combat 1911 when I redeploy, but my entire collection will be worth less than $10k. I have insurance with a rider for highly valued firearms covering that amount, plus the NRA $2.5k.

Yes, I have watched all the common videos on Youtube and aware of the composite door trickery. Fire ratings are not standardized or tested, in most cases. Thin door bolts, thin walls and fire seals that allow smoke in. Fire axes can punch a hole in 10-gauge and less fairly easily. Digital locks fail way more often than spin dials. And, of course, then there is the dreaded EMP fail for digital locks.

Watching all of the safe education videos would drive most to buy a $3k or more, minimum. Many cannot afford that, and most do not *need* that level of protection. You could spend a lot of money and STILL get ripped off if the right thief comes your way and thinks it worth their time & investment.

So, a safe that costs less than half of a American Security BF-series and thwarts the far, far majority of amateur thieves might be better money spent. Not sure...I am trying to challenge my own assumptions here. I was darn near sold on a Sturdy Safe with upgrades, which I am sure is a fine device--and expensive. The difference between it and a Fatboy Jr. could easily buy a Dillon 650XL with casefeeder setup & accessories, or the 6.5 Grendel upper I have been drooling over, or a spanking new Dan Wesson Guardian for CCW. If the Fatboy serves 98% of my needs, that investment might be a smarter place to put my money.

This is about value, not the worst case scenario. Devil's Advocate for the common safe advice. I am not sold on it yet, but trying it on for size mentally.

Click to expand...

I have a safe that has resistance against a cutting torch attack which I got for less than quite a few friends spend on RSC gun safes. The security safes I have are ugly & plain and were purchased in a condition needing a little cosmetic TLC, but I got some crazy good bargains.

For me, the question about how much is enough burglary protection starts where there is enough armor to resist hand tool attacks to any side, and I've enjoyed playing around and learning from attacking some plates with different tools likely to be found in the home. IIRC, Sturdy starts with 3/16-inch steel on their base models without any options, and I feel that starting with 1/4 or 3/16 covers a much wider net of scenarios than a 11 gauge wall. That's just my opinion of course, and not the Word of the Lord.

Everything can be defeated and a Castle is no exception. But I like the safety margin a security safe provides by necessitating skill, specialized tools & tooling, and a lot of time to defeat. I used that particular image because I always find it amusing how gun safes use some crafty methods to make their safes appear the same to security safes even though the difference is so great it is almost comical, and in your shopping I imagine you saw much of the wrapping used to emulate solid plates.

I sometimes wonder how many thieves sustain serious injury each year attacking safes. Like, if a criminal is using a grinder cutter head made for metal, and they penetrate the metal plate and hit that concrete, what happens next could really suck. I imagine self-impalement with broken drill bits isn't unheard of either. You get home and find a voluntary human shish kabob. And I am willing to bet at least a few geniuses with fire axes have performed field amputations on their criminal buddies.

Bought a Study Safe this afternoon. Nice people to deal with. My final cost was considerably less than the prices they list on their website. I ended up with 4 ga walls, 3/8" door and 3/16" of stainless over the lock area. I'm comfortable I made the right decision although I wanted a bigger safe. The size I originally wanted would have required removal of doors and jams and it just wasn't worth the hassle. Glad I did a final measurement of the area.

Post #12, above: Where does one get a used security safe?

Where does one get a used security safe?

Click to expand...

From a company that deals in security safes. Although they do not always advertise much, there are always some around you. Every bank, jewelry store, etc. uses them for their security needs. If you can't find one using Google, just ask your bank who they use the next time you are in.

As far as the question "How much safe is enough":

It's a simple calculation that guys like me make several times a day. We take the type of items you're looking to store, the value of those items, and the degree of balance between fire and burglary protection into consideration.

Safes are like any other tool. Different tools are better suited for different jobs.

Do you typically recommend a "B rate" safe for up to $10k in guns?

Click to expand...

In a residential setting, I think most "typical" gun safes are good up to $25K or so. Residential risks are much lower than commercial risk when it comes to the safe being a target.

Over $25K and you should be using multiple smaller safes or a better built single safe.