Bonded .308 vs. .30-06 Armor Piercing Grizzly Defense

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First thing to think about is to quit overthinking. The selection method goes like this...these are the options I have, these few are the best suited for the threat. Of those, these are the two or three I shoot well (and quickly). Of that final group it's down to which one you feel like toting around and beating against the bushes, briars, and rocks in the terrain. Your AR 10 sounds like a winner from what little I know about you. I would hate to haul that kind of weight around though.

If your worried about learning curve on a 44 mag you need to quit overthinking that too. Get a double action that points halfway naturally and pull the trigger. Put 20 rounds through it each day for a couple weeks and go fishing. FWIW there's not a semiauto pistol made that I would trust, but I would certainly be satisfied with any 41, 44, 454, 460, 480, 500 etc. I would toss 45 Colt in too but there are a few cowboy guns out there I wouldn't fool with. Most 45 da revolvers would be good though.
 
Oh dear, please no. Not a single point on a fishing trip. Muzzle down flopping around, banging into things as you walk...and by things, I mean both on and off "your person". Last thing I would want to do is essentially carry a heavy device designed to punch me in the testicles every couple hours.
 
I live in the rockies. I backpack extensively, and in your situation. I bought a Glock 29 (10mm). Get some good fast hard cast 200gr. Rounds and call it a day.
 
Here's a few thoughts on this subject...

I wish I had a dime right now, for every hour I carried a long gun in brown bear country, instead of my 44 magnum!!

I've hunted/shot big game with a handgun. I've hunted/shot a few brown bears...

MY experience is, I'd MUCH rather have a long gun in my hands!

As for using a 30-06 on big bears, it's perfectly acceptable BUT if I'm the one carrying it, it WILL be loaded with 200NP's or 220NP's! PEROID!

Anyone who says 180's are as good, just hasn't used both, 180's and 200's on bigger big game!

Anyone who says the 30-06 is superior to a .338-06 (for this job) has never used a .338-06 loaded with 275 grain Speers on big bears! This is my all time favorite combo for this job!

I agree, Phil got a bit lucky with the 9mm BUT there's also the fact that he's experienced at dealing with brown bears... that's a BIG difference in a situation like that! I can tell you that from my own experience!!

Your chances of having a bear problem is slim, carry what ever you can shoot well, just leave that hard ball ammo home!!

DM
 
In 308 a 165 gr. expanding solid such as the TTSX is always going to have better terminal performance than a 180-220gr. cup and core. period.
 
DM~ said:
Here's a few thoughts on this subject...

I wish I had a dime right now, for every hour I carried a long gun in brown bear country, instead of my 44 magnum!!

I've hunted/shot big game with a handgun. I've hunted/shot a few brown bears...

MY experience is, I'd MUCH rather have a long gun in my hands!

As for using a 30-06 on big bears, it's perfectly acceptable BUT if I'm the one carrying it, it WILL be loaded with 200NP's or 220NP's! PEROID!

Anyone who says 180's are as good, just hasn't used both, 180's and 200's on bigger big game!

Anyone who says the 30-06 is superior to a .338-06 (for this job) has never used a .338-06 loaded with 275 grain Speers on big bears! This is my all time favorite combo for this job!

I agree, Phil got a bit lucky with the 9mm BUT there's also the fact that he's experienced at dealing with brown bears... that's a BIG difference in a situation like that! I can tell you that from my own experience!!

Your chances of having a bear problem is slim, carry what ever you can shoot well, just leave that hard ball ammo home!!

DM
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Don't over think this. Good Advice. Rather have a rifle in my hand [than a handgun]. Its the in hand or at hand thing that needs to be upgraded in the thinking. You're not hunting, you're fishing so its going to be one or the other in your hand. Can do a one handed grab of a handgun in a cross drawl chest holster quickly. Even with the AR sling mentioned bringing the weapon into firing position would be slower at best. I can just picture this husband and wife standing in or along a stream fishing with long guns slung at their waste.

Now remember that we are talking about Montana. Bears other than in movies just don't reach the monster size that is so often mentioned, anywhere in the lower 48 like they do in several regions in Alaska [Kodiac comes to mind]. A 357 loaded with heavy hardcast is a well respected lower 48 bear combo. I would recommend a revolver over any auto for a lot of reasons, but simple and reliable in a down and dirty environment is foremost.

Finally an M-1??? Can't imagine hiking in the rockies with anything like an M-1. Even if I was going bear hunting rather than fishing I wouldn't voluntarily choose a very heavy M-1.
The best advice here is take a handgun and select from one you own and are comfortable shooting, that can be up loaded for a lower 48 bear.
 
I've never hunted bear. I did spend 20 years in the army humping a heavy load and a heavy rifle over varied terrain.

Carry what you want and feel comfortable with. Keep in mind I said this when you are out in the hills. It may be comforting to have the rifle, but you are going to cuss carrying it. You also won't be enjoying the fishing. I hope you aren't insisting that your wife also carry a rifle. You might end up divorced or shot by the end of a long trip.:p

I personally would carry a suitable handgun and maybe one for the wife as well, if she is competent with a handgun. That way you can protect eachother.

Good luck on your trip and give us an after action report when you get back.
 
Another thought I just had...you didn't mention which .45 or 10MM you currently own, but assuming you own a Glock G20 or G40, you might consider adding a second Glock 10MM, perhaps a G29 as a BUG? Likewise, if your .45 is a high cap pistol with a smaller sibling that shares magazines, that concept would work as well. This way, both you and your better half can share ammo and even high cap mags.

Just a thought...
 
The Ruger Alaskan, http://www.ruger.com/products/superRedhawkAlaskan/models.html ,
is available in 44 Magnum, 454 Casull, and 480 Ruger. It has 2.5" barrel. The crown of the barrel looks a bit like the inside of the bell of a trumpet horn. It weighs 44 oz. It will likely kill a bear, and if you miss, will likely blind and deafen the bear, thereby confusing him and giving you time to escape, take a follow up, or pray (or all three simultaneously). Personally, I would not fire one on a dare--2.5" is punishing to your hearing in a 357 and I fear that in one of the big bores it might be worse...

But it was put together for the application you have in mind. It also feels nice in the hand and points naturally. I suspect that if you practice a lot with a J-Frame 22 or Ruger LCR then muscle memory will take over when, and IF you need to use the Big Boy. You are not looking at shooting long strings in case the worst thing happens. Point it, keep the front sight on target and pull the trigger till you start hearing clicks. Your adrenaline will be so high you will probably think you are are shooting the J-Frame since you have practiced so much.

Just my $.02. But, if you have a good 10 that feels like an extension of your body, go with it. Glocks are pretty tough.

Should I have the good fortune to go salmon fishing in Alaska again, I will probably take my Ruger Bisley with the 3.5" barrel in 44 Magnum. It is probably the most accurate handgun I own.
 
As mentioned, youre overthinking some of this. Forget AP. If you do use the 10mm, please shoot(waste?) several boxes of the heavy loads to be sure they actually work in your gun before trusting your life to them. They do not work in all guns reliably. The only way you can know is to shoot enough of them to establish a record.

No need for the super powered slugs, Id go with the 2 3/4" standard or short magnum Brennekes if you have a handy shotgun. They have an excellent reputation. One member here used them a number of times on Alaskan bears, he said they always went all the way through. FWIW, id also avoid the tactical slings. Sounds like more of a pain in the behind than anything while trying to do other things.

I don't get the "either/or" way some look at bear protection. Yes, long guns are generally better, but handguns are vastly easier to have on hand 100% of the time regardless of what youre doing. If going light I just take a 4" 44 smith or a 4 5/8" 45 Ruger SA. a long gun may go, but that by no means the pistol stays home, it just goes to secondary status. I also believe in having pepper handy, it does work in many instances, though Id hate to have it be my only option.

Bears aren't the unstoppable mega-fauna the net makes them out to be.
 
As far as handguns go, avoid the boat-anchor weighty, 5-shot mega-magnum revolvers. :rolleyes:

Unless it's one with a gunsmith-smoothed trigger, first round hits are highly iffy, and you won't get a second due to the slow rate of fire before Big Ol' Mr. Grizz is nibbling on your yardenals.

That's all assuming of course, you have this boat-anchor wheelgun within reach and not buried in your backpack when Mr. Grizz comes lumbering down the river bank to your fishing spot.

Get one of the Glock 10mms, and then load it with heavy-n-fast hardcast loads of 200gns or more.

You can thank me later. ;)

Clockwise: G29, G20, G40 MOS.

Trio-4.jpg

:cool:
 
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GooseGestapo said:
But in the final analysis, it's better to be "tried by 12, than carried by 6", or one or two, depending on how much the bear leaves...
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I don't care who you are, that's funny!

Seriously though, whatever else you do, forget about using AP ammo for this application.

I'd also suggest that before you decide to carry a longarm on the trip, you should try fishing with a slung rifle some.
 
Dr T said:
The Ruger Alaskan, http://www.ruger.com/products/superRedhawkAlaskan/models.html ,
is available in 44 Magnum, 454 Casull, and 480 Ruger. It has 2.5" barrel. The crown of the barrel looks a bit like the inside of the bell of a trumpet horn. It weighs 44 oz. It will likely kill a bear, and if you miss, will likely blind and deafen the bear, thereby confusing him and giving you time to escape, take a follow up, or pray (or all three simultaneously). Personally, I would not fire one on a dare--2.5" is punishing to your hearing in a 357 and I fear that in one of the big bores it might be worse...

But it was put together for the application you have in mind. It also feels nice in the hand and points naturally. I suspect that if you practice a lot with a J-Frame 22 or Ruger LCR then muscle memory will take over when, and IF you need to use the Big Boy. You are not looking at shooting long strings in case the worst thing happens. Point it, keep the front sight on target and pull the trigger till you start hearing clicks. Your adrenaline will be so high you will probably think you are are shooting the J-Frame since you have practiced so much.

Just my $.02. But, if you have a good 10 that feels like an extension of your body, go with it. Glocks are pretty tough.

Should I have the good fortune to go salmon fishing in Alaska again, I will probably take my Ruger Bisley with the 3.5" barrel in 44 Magnum. It is probably the most accurate handgun I own.
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Montana rockies are not in Alaska and the bears, while formidable in their size, they are not Kodiac mega sized. You do not need an elephant gun to protect yourself from an elk.

Many people in the lower 48 are shocked when they actually come in contact with a bear in the wild, having seen all the movies and read the stories about monsters the size of a full sized Van. Alaska is a way different place but even up there all bears are not monsters. In the lower 48, while on a fishing trip in bear country, just about any handgun in an appropriate caliber, with the proper ammo, that you can shoot well and with confidence is going to be much more effective than that hand cannon or hi cap black rifle. Remember here we are in the lower 48 and the OP is Fishing.
 
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1. Black Tip AP is worthless for critters and is illegal to use against game in most states.

2. You are MUCH more likely to run into weirdo two-legged critters than a four legged critter that actually needs shooting.

3. I ran through the woods of Alaska with only a pellet gun or single shot 22 between the ages of 7 to 15 when I bought my first Mauser. Yet I managed not to become bear bait.

4. Many supposedly self defense bear shootings are really cover-up stories invented by trigger happy yahoos who freak out at everything they see in the woods.

Just shove your 10mm in to chest holster and go fishing. The woods are not the Beaches of Normandy.
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Many supposedly self defense bear shootings are really cover-up stories invented by trigger happy yahoos who freak out at everything they see in the woods.
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Ding Ding!

We have a thread comment winner!

That goes along with the comments about "Well ANY bear that looks sideways at me is getting it at 50 yards!!!" type comments. Good way to garner a LOT of Federal interest in your life all of a sudden.

There aint no exact script bears follow, good or bad, despite internet lore. Understanding their behavior goes a long ways to not being the centerpiece of a federal investigation.
 
And we have a winner. And the prize is a 5 day you pay the expenses to ride shotgun for a loving couple who is going fishing in the Montana rockies. In fact these two will spend most of their time catching their breath and stroking their
AR's while you're doing the fishing. Bring your rod.
 
Float pilot,

I must say that that picture reminds me of a place on the Russian River where I had an encounter with a black bear and her two cubs.

Fortunately, they went one way and I went the other...

My personal defense armament was an 8 1/2 Ft fly rod and a wading staff.

tds
 
That is part of the south fork of the Anchor River. I occasionally see small brown bears wandering through but we leave each other alone.

Here is another of my favorite fishing spots. not connected by any roads...

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Nice Cessna. 182?

I have a friend who used to fly his 185 in the Iditarod Air Force. His plane gun was a pump 12 ga with a pistol grip. He told me he once had to spend the night on Summit Lake in Lake Clark Pass with the gun in his lap and holding onto his mooring rope.

But then, he had a cooler full of fish...

There is something about paw prints in sandbanks that are the size of dinner plates that gives you pause. But that is Alaska, not down here.
 
I agree with carrying a handgun, not a rifle. You are in for a strenuous adventure and you don't need the extra weight.

Also, I would NOT use AP ammo for bear. You want something like a 180 grain Nosler partition jacket for grizz.
 
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