ISIS terrorist attack at Minnesota mall

No, I haven't noticed. How many radicalized Muslims do you know?


But what you quoted was just my take on ISIS claiming responsibility for everything. If the result of ISIS's terror training program is a guy who stabs 10 people without killing a single one, I am happy to let them claim this level of incompetence.

Regardless of their success at murder they have successfully cost the American taxpayer hundreds of thousands in lost production and the effort of hundreds of LEO's with just a few dollars and a couple events.
One jihadist dead the other shot.
There are thousands of others to follow so what we have is a war of attrition.

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Yes, and even though the attack is over, it will cost tens of thousands of $ more for us to figure out why it happened and what sort of connections Adan may have had with terror groups, how he became radicalized, motivations, etc.

So, a few takeaways, which are really not new to anyone here:

1) terrorists like attacking malls, even if it is a stabbing attack and not a shooting or a bombing.

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They like attacking any place there are people, be it a mall, street, art event, wedding, airplane, or building.

2) most mall shoppers are unarmed, apparently.

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Most people are unarmed. Even most people with carry permits do not actually carry. That most mall shoppers are unarmed isn't a revelation. There is no reason to expect most people at malls to be armed given that the rest of the population usually isn't.

3) the terrorist was dressed in a "security" uniform, more and more a tactic of terrorists to lull you into a false sense of complacency and to add to the element of surprise.

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Well, that was the job he had - working for a security company.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/09/20/mall-attacker-was-recent-college-student-security-guard.html

4) the good guy ended the fight with a handgun while the terrorist was charging him with a knife. No 50-foot groups to brag about here, folks.

5) the good guy apparently only hit the terrorist, and not any of the god-knows-how-many innocent civilians cowering behind clothes racks, sheet rock walls, out in the open, etc.

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Good guy with a gun was exceptionally well trained and practiced. Heck he competes and is a firearms and tactical instructor, even owning a tactical training facility. He isn't your run-of-the-mill average good guy. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/sep/19/jason-falconer-man-who-took-down-minnesota-stabber/

I heard one account of the attacks lasting up to five minutes, that is a lifetime for those on the receiving end.
I do have to question where we are after 15 years of this happening on our soil.
Good to hear there was a man with a gun to put an end to it.

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Good guy was an "off duty" police officer (apparently in MN, police can act 24/7 so off duty/on duty distinction is pretty much the same).

My take was this is a classic issue where someone carrying could get confused--you see a guy about to shoot a security guard--unless you saw the security guard knifing random people, you might just think that the good guy had the knife and the bad guy had the gun. Then you might mistakenly shoot the off duty police officer which is a classic friendly fire accident possibility.

RX-79G said:

No, I haven't noticed. How many radicalized Muslims do you know?


But what you quoted was just my take on ISIS claiming responsibility for everything. If the result of ISIS's terror training program is a guy who stabs 10 people without killing a single one, I am happy to let them claim this level of incompetence.

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I think a lot of the homegrown terrorists do not have actual training by ISIS, they just have inspiration from the internet. And for their purpose -- terrorizing Westerners -- stabbing without killing is probably just as effective.

Thought gaming was supposed to "get ya killed on the street".

Well, gaming isn't tactical training, but it isn't worthless either. When you consider that this guy was a serious competitor and well brushed up on tactics going against a man with a knife it's easy to predict the outcome. This was a badly, badly mismatched fight which is exactly what we want on the street.

The training issue is important in PR land. If you chortle about a good guy with a gun, then someone asks you if you are trained?

What does the average gun owner say?

One could easily point to the Tacoma mall guy who got himself shot.

Off duty police really don't make the good guy (or woman) as civilian success in an incident case.

Well, gaming isn't tactical training, but it isn't worthless either.

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I was being facetious. As the tackycool crowd loves to state what I quoted...

I am enjoying "13 Hours: The Secret Soldiers of Benghazi" and find it quite interesting that the SEAL and Ranger trained defense force included several individuals that were avid gamers.

another pake said:

In keeping with the sub forum ST&T...

Locally we have heard a few items early on that may or may not make it to the national news.

Local authorities commented soon after the attacks about several issues that caught my attention.

In their praise of the off duty officer who stopped the attacks it was said that after initially confronting the assailant and ordering him to the ground the assailant began to comply, then changed his mind and began to charge at the officer. It was reported that the assailant "quickly closed the 50 foot gap that separated them". The officer fired, the assailant fell and proceeded to get up at least three more times before finally stopping for good.

Training? OK for stationary targets, but sometimes they close the gap toward you quickly and get up again and again.

Over here we're very thankful that a well trained individual knew what to do and did it.

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Part of our annual training and requalification was watching training films, and several dealt with a knife attacker. They generally made the point that people can cover ground very quickly, and knives are as lethal as a firearm.

I once arrested a guy who came at me with a knife. My thought process at the time included drawing an imaginary line on the ground, and my intent was to shoot him if he crossed that line. Fortunately, he dropped his knife and submitted before he crossed that line into my space.

Anybody who asks why a person was shot if "they only had a knife" obviously has no idea as to the danger.

I hadn't heard of the ISIS connection. Whoever has that information should go ahead and share it with the authorities.

Not all muslim terrorists are ISIS terrorists, and this game is far from new. Language matters, details of organization matter. Misinformation matters too, and short of a source for a link to ISIS it's better to stick with the facts.

Quote:
That mall is a gun-free zone, according to Breitbart. (See http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...gun-free-zone/). Note that the article is silent as to whether off-duty or retired cops are also required to disarm before entering.

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I would be very interested in the answer to this as well. If the officer was violating mall policy, or state law, I would imagine bringing that up would be very embarrassing for those who make the rules.

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It was already mentioned in other posts above that off duty MN cops may carry in "gun free" zones. But I haven't seen the other issue addressed - whether or not the mall actually WAS a gun free zone.

Apparently MN law is specific about how such areas must be posted if they are to be gun free. While this particular mall did have "Rules of Conduct" posted at some - but not all - entrances which did include a "No weapons of any kind allowed" rule, such a posting isn't sufficient in the eyes of the law to declare the mall a gun free zone. The signs must be of a specific size with a specific font among other things, and posted at all entrances. This was not the case at that mall.

Also I believe that if it WAS a properly marked gun free zone, the penalty would be a petty misdemeanor and a $25 fine. But before you can be charged with that, they must ask you to leave and if you do, then no charge.

(I'm in a hurry this morning, so I didn't have time to research links for the above rules. Perhaps someone familiar with MN law can verify.)

ETA:
Ok, got delayed so here are some links:

http://handgunlaw.us/states/minnesota.pdf

That one covers the petty misdemeanor aspect of carrying in a posted location.

Then this one: http://jux.law/minnesota-gun-laws-banning-weapons-at-private-establishments/ covers the signage requirements for posting a gun free zone in MN.

We have just seen another mall attack in WA. 5 killed in another GFZ. Killer still on the loose and cops all over after the fact.
Hopefully someone will start to compile the data on these GFZ shootings and get the public up in arms about this.

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Just left our local Macy's shopping with Wifey.
Spoke to the manager who was on the register where we checked out.
Asked about the incident yesterday in Washington state.
He said he had a crew meeting this morning with all his personnel about response to active shooter situations.
Then stated this should have been not needed because the mall has no weapons rules. <face palm>
I asked him if he knew how many mass shootings have taken place in GFZ?
He didn't know.
I replied that nearly every mass shooting in the past has been in a "weapons free" area.
Clueless....

I asked him if he knew how many mass shootings have taken place in GFZ?
He didn't know.
I replied that nearly every mass shooting in the past has been in a "weapons free" area.
Clueless....

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Hmmm, maybe you judge too harshly given all the mass shootings that do not occur in gun free zones. In fact, a lot don't.

Nearly every street side drive-by shooting where 4 or more people are shot is a public mass shooting.
Then there was the mass shooting in Dallas just recently, several officers killed and wounded...so we blew up the shooter.
Houston mass shooting and a CHL holder was shot through both legs - http://abc13.com/news/gunman-in-west-houston-mass-shooting-ided/1362286/
Tyler Texas square - CHL holder was killed in that one
Tacoma Mall (not posted) - CHL holder crippled
Phoenix, AZ - Giffords shooting (CHL holder arrived too late to stop the shooter and almost shot the wrong person who was holding a gun as the shooter had already been disarmed.)
Geneva County Alabama Massacre - shooting spree with mass shooting in middle of it.
Beauty Salon Shooting, Seal Beach, CA
Theater shooting Lafayette, LA
Umpqua Community College, OR (not a gun free zone and there were carriers on campus that did not respond to shooting, opting to shelter in place)
Wisconsin Hunters mass shooting, WI
Azana Salon Shooting, WI

Back in 2012 I started a thread noting a lot of the mass shootings that were not in gun-free zones. Most did not make the national media, garner a lot of coverage, or attract anything but local attention, but they occurred.

We tend to focus on the big, news grabbing national headlines, usually those where the killer(s) is known (which results in lots of follow-up stories), but we usually ignore or are ignorant of many of the news-local mass shootings, especially unsolved events that do not make the national press as a lead story.

I do think it is very safe to say that many of the big national events (certainly not all), especially rampage shootings do occur in gun-free zones, but they are only a smaller number of the total events that occur.

Shovelhead said:

If a stranger asks you if you are a Muslim, you should be be watching their hands, jumping to a heightened awareness condition, and preparing to defend and/or exit the area quickly.

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...either that or facing east and praying to Allah.

I didn't see the video posted, its out on the net. It shows all the events of the guy attacking someone in a store, and the confrontation with the off duty guy through several cameras. One store, the employee realized something was going on and closed the security mesh just as the guy got to the door, and locked it as he was deciding what to do or started to leave.

Is it OK to link? Its a little bloody at the end.

Its on Youtube. Theres quite a lot of copies of it, the first one I saw repeated every scene several times for some reason. This one seems to have it all and only shows each clip once.

It was interesting that the officer was backing up as the guy was approaching him and he fall backwards. He recovered quickly and put more distance between the guy and himself.

Knife guy was dressed in a security guard uniform, which likely caused some confusion.

Derek Zeanah said:

Wow. That guy got up fast, and still had some fight in him after taking multiple rounds.

You hear this in training, and you read it here. It's nice to see it though to drive it home.

Thanks for posting this.

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Last year on watching video of a terror attack in Israel I also saw an assailant get up after being shot, this was the one where he first ran over the victim with his car and then jumped out and was stabbing him... a few armed citizens ran up and one of them shot the terrorist, who went down... got up shortly, was shot again, and got up a second time and tried to run away. It would never have occurred to me that somebody gets up after being shot, seeing it in real life etched it indelibly in my mind.

Malamute said:

Its on Youtube. Theres quite a lot of copies of it, the first one I saw repeated every scene several times for some reason. This one seems to have it all and only shows each clip once.

It was interesting that the officer was backing up as the guy was approaching him and he fall backwards. He recovered quickly and put more distance between the guy and himself.

Knife guy was dressed in a security guard uniform, which likely caused some confusion.

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See the way he was advancing on Falconer with his back turned? Rumor is, that's a technique used to exploit a good guy's (security, LEO, etc.) aversion to shooting someone in the back. Any hesitation to shoot allows them to get closer than they would if they were facing them. Supposedly Hamas teaches this technique.