Gun In Vehicle At Courthouse

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Good Ol' Boy

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I was recently requested for jury duty in the upcoming month or so. Obviously one can not carry inside court houses, but is it ok to leave the gun in the vehicle on county property as such?
 
Not if it's a federal courthouse. Each state has its own laws regarding county/state properties. It would be permissible in my state. What is the law in yours?
 
You'll need to look up the law in your state. Here in Utah, you can leave it in your car at any courthouse parking lot as long as it isn't a Federal court AND you're parking in the courthouse parking lot. If it turns out that you can't keep it in the car in the courthouse parking lot, just park somewhere else where you can leave it. Just make sure that it's secure and that no one you don't know and trust watches you disarm. You don't want to make your gun a target while you're fulfilling your civic duty.

As .455_Hunter says, call the courthouse but take it with a grain of salt. The closest major courthouse to me (Utah 4th District Court in Provo, UT) will imply that guns aren't allowed on any court property if you call them, even though that's not what the law actually says.

Matt
 
Checking the law in Virginia, as others have said, other than a Federal Courthouse parking lot, all other parking lots should be good to go.
 
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Not a problem in the county where I live as the only parking is public parking where anyone can park. It is not part of the courthouse property. What other counties do may be different. If the courthouse has their own parking facility I could see the possibility of it being illegal. If in doubt call.
 
Unless you have a gun safe mounted in your car I would not leave it in the car. In Virginia if it is not listed in the law then it is considered legal. Since courthouse lots are not listed as a prohibited area it would be legal to keep your gun in the car. Is it wise? Imagine you are holstering or unholstering when a Deputy Sheriff just happens to walk by. Things might get interesting for a while. Also courthouses draw a number of unsavory characters. One of them could possibly break in and steal your gun. All in all I would not risk it. BTW I did security for a Federal Courthouse in the early 1990s. Other than local police and federal law enforcement officers my partner and I were the only ones allowed to carry firearms there. Even security officers from other companies were turned away. They didn't like it but they were not approved to have firearms there.
 
No Gun Signs have no force of law in Virginia,


That's a bit misleading.

Per your link

Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. Violation is a trespass charge and not a firearms violation. § 18.2-308



Lets look at trespassing (18.2-119).

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person

Emphasis added by me.


Trespassing is a class 1 misdemeanor in Virginia.

In Virginia,

§ 18.2-11. Punishment for conviction of misdemeanor.

The authorized punishments for conviction of a misdemeanor are:

(a) For Class 1 misdemeanors, confinement in jail for not more than twelve months and a fine of not more than $2,500, either or both.
 
That's a bit misleading.

Take it up with Gary Slider at Handgun Law.

http://handgunlaw.us/states/virginia.pdf

Do
“No Gun Signs” Have the Force of Law?
“NO”
“Handgunlaw.us highly recommends that you not enter a place that is posted "No Firearms" no matter what
the state laws read/mean on signage. We recommend you print out the
No Guns = No Money Cards
and
give one to the owner of the establishment that has the signage." As responsible gun owners and upholders of
the 2nd Amendment we should also honor the rights of property owners to control their own property
even if
we disagree with them
 
While Gary does excelent work, the statues are the statues.

Having said that....

I read that doc and if you keep reading it past the part you quoted it says
Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. Violation is a trespass charge and not a firearms violation. § 18.2-308
 
I read that doc and if you keep reading it past the part you quoted it says
Quote:
Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. Violation is a trespass charge and not a firearms violation. § 18.2-308

Danez, are you now agreeing with Gary that No Gun Signs have no force of law?
Is a parking lot property owner simply going to put up a No Trespassing sign, period?

If so, what purpose would that serve on a privately owned parking lot open to the public?
I am not being sarcastic, just wondering what you are alluding to as far as the OP or anyone else is concerned.
 
I'm not alluding anything.

A no gun sign can be posted and if bring one you could be charged with trespassing.

That's what Gary's site says and that's what the statues say. See above for the links and quotes.
 
You are saying that if the parking lot owner puts up a sign simply saying No Guns Allowed and does not follow up with adding , No Trespassing, it is still a possible trespass offense?

Then what is the point of Handgun Law or any other site saying No Guns Signs have no force of law? If you can be eventually be arrested on a trespass charge because you breached that No Guns sign. Sounds like a Catch 22. A contradiction in the bolded part.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person

A no gun sign can be posted and if bring one you could be charged with trespassing.

That's what Gary's site says and that's what the statues say.

Where does Gary's site say that? It is not in the Handgun Law quote I put up in post #13

Answer me that and we will call it a night! :D
 
You are saying that if the parking lot owner puts up a sign simply saying No Guns Allowed and does not follow up with adding , No Trespassing, it is still a possible trespass offense?

Then what is the point of Handgun Law or any other site saying No Guns Signs have no force of law? If you can be eventually be arrested on a trespass charge because you breached that No Guns sign. Sounds like a Catch 22. A contradiction in the bolded part.

If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person

A no gun sign can be posted and if bring one you could be charged with trespassing.

That's what Gary's site says and that's what the statues say.

Where does Gary's site say that? It is not in the Handgun Law quote I put up in post #13....
I think Gary has confused things here.

The criminal trespass statute says the it's a crime to enter onto private property if forbidden to do so by a sign. Unless a Virginia court of appeal has ruled that a "no gun" sign does not count as a sign forbidding entry by someone with a gun, a court may well rule that it does so count as a sign forbidding entry by someone carrying a gun. So absent a court ruling to the contrary, a no gun sign would have the force of law for the purposes of the criminal trespass statutes.

A sign that says "no trespassing" is not automatically the only sort of sign which can effective forbid entry by someone. So again, unless a Virginia court of appeals has rules that a sign forbidding entry must be in a certain form or include certain word, or that a sign forbidding under certain specified conditions, e. g., if carrying a gun, does not effectively trigger the criminal trespass statute, a "no guns" sign does have the force of law -- at least for the purposes of triggering a possible criminal trespass violation.

Of course that's all based on the plain language of the statute. If someone would like to do the research and see what, if anything, Virginia courts of appeal have said on the point, I'm sure we'd all be grateful.
 
Of course that's all based on the plain language of the statute. If someone would like to do the research and see what, if anything, Virginia courts of appeal have said on the point, I'm sure we'd all be grateful.

Thanks for the clarification, Frank. If a Virginia court of appeal has not ruled on particular signage, certainly violating a posted No Guns Sign could then lead to a disastrous misdemeanor. That is enough information for me to avoid any establishment or parking lot that displays such signs while carrying in the Commonwealth.

I let me Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) membership lapse, however I still have their contact info. On Monday I will will see if they can shed any light on this ticklish situation.
 
You are saying that if the parking lot owner puts up a sign simply saying No Guns Allowed and does not follow up with adding , No Trespassing, it is still a possible trespass offense?

I worded it differently but essentially, yes, that's what Ive been saying.


Then what is the point of Handgun Law or any other site saying No Guns Signs have no force of law? If you can be eventually be arrested on a trespass charge because you breached that No Guns sign. Sounds like a Catch 22. A contradiction in the bolded part.


I cant answer that other than to point out that is the reason I said its a bit misleading several posts ago.




Where does Gary's site say that? It is not in the Handgun Law quote I put up in post #13

Answer me that and we will call it a night! :D


Good morning! :D


I'm thinking you only selectively read the doc you linked to.

Page 4, 1st bullet says exactly what I said it says and quoted for your convenience. I also posted the link to the statute at the VA state site.

Page 4, 1st bullet of the link you posted says:
Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. Violation is a trespass charge and not a firearms violation. § 18.2-308



Thanks for the clarification, Frank. If a Virginia court of appeal has not ruled on particular signage, certainly violating a posted No Guns Sign could then lead to a disastrous misdemeanor.


Oh... so you now agree with me after Franks gracious explanation.

If you had just read what I provided, or even had just read the link you yourself provided, you should/would have come to same conclusion.

I did not state opinion. I stated facts with supporting links to the laws.



I let me Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) membership lapse, however I still have their contact info. On Monday I will will see if they can shed any light on this ticklish situation.


Again, I don't think you even read the doc in the link you provided.

If you had, you'd have seen this on pg4
You can read Here what the Virginia Citizens Defensive League states on this matter and that they must ask you to leave first.

And you'd also see, on pg 4

5/12/16 - On May 6 Brian Coy, the governor’s spokesperson, affirmed the order is a policy and if a gun owner is asked to leave at one of these locations, and didn’t leave immediately the punishment would be trespassing. "If you enter a facility that's under the purview of this order, you'll be asked to leave or you'll deny entry. If you're respectful, that should be the end of the story," said Coy.


But that is also misleading as the governor's spokeperson has no bearing on the law. (I'm guessing that in a practical sense, this is probably what happens most of the time. But its not the way the law reads.)


The quote above on pg 4, is immediately followed by

Private property when prohibited by the owner of the property, or where posted as prohibited. Violation is a trespass charge and not a firearms violation. § 18.2-308




As I see it, the law says, and Frank agrees, and Garys site alludes at if you read between the lines, the no gun sign dont have the force of law for a firearms charge/conviction, but they can for a trespassing change/conviction.


Which all goes back to my comment of "That's a bit misleading".


And, yes, Thank you Frank.
 
Good Afternoon! :D A lot of quoting. I didn't mean to hurt any feelings. You did a good job. This sums it up:

As I see it, the law says, and Frank agrees, and Garys site alludes at if you read between the lines, the no gun sign dint have the force of law for a firearms charge/conviction, but they can for a trespassing change/conviction.

Agree. However,we shouldn't have to read between the lines when it comes to a matter of a severe misdemeanor. That's not good enough. Most of us are not attorneys or well versed in intricate matters of law.

Putting up front that No Guns Signs have no force of law is much too misleading on the Handgun Law site. And Mr.Coy's comment, while possibly sincere, is certainly not absolute, as you and Frank have pointed out.

Frank and yourself have done me a large service as I have relatives and friends in Gainesville and Fairfax ,Virginia and pass through almost every year.
And others on this forum, even Virginians, possibly were not aware of the trap inherent in the trespassing offense behind the no guns sign facade.

From now on, those signs will be treated as trespassing and I'll just mosey on by to the next establishment or parking lot that is sans possible disaster.
 
There is great value in knowing the firearms laws of the states in which you live and travel.

For example, in Utah, any court facility (http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title78A/Chapter2/78A-2-S203.html?v=C78A-2-S203_1800010118000101),

correctional facility, law enforcement facility, or mental health facility (http://le.utah.gov/xcode/Title76/Chapter8/76-8-S311.1.html?v=C76-8-S311.1_1800010118000101)

which establishes a gun-free, secure zone must comply with the following:

"(a) Provisions shall be made to provide a secure weapons storage area so that persons entering the secure area may store their weapons prior to entering the secure area.
(b) The entity operating the facility shall be responsible for weapons while they are stored in the storage area."

(Note that this quote is from the provisions for jails, mental health facilities, etc. The language for court facilities is similar, however).


These provisions have the effect of making it unnecessary for visitors to these facilities to leave their legally-carried firearms in their vehicles. Please note that these provisions do NOT apply to federally-owned or operated facilities in the state of Utah.


While not directly applicable to the OP's situation in Virginia, this example simply points out what one can learn if they choose to search through and understand applicable laws.
 
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Red wing, no, you didn't hurt my feelings.

It just seemed that you wanted to argue with out even reading the link you provided or reading the factual links of the state statutes I provided.

I DO agree with that we shouldn't have to read between the lines. Gary does great work and his site is generally the only one I use...but I always check the States site too.

Generally speaking, the No Force of Law type comment is misleading (or wrong, depending on your perspective) in every state for the same reason - a property owner can restrict you from carrying in their property just as you can restrict theirs on your property. It just becomes a non-firearm offense.


How all this applies to a State owned public parking lot.... I'm not exactly sure. Maybe Frank could elaborate. But I know I won't be the test case that may lead to criminal trespass charge.
 
Red wing, no, you didn't hurt my feelings.

It's Red Wind, but we'll let that pass. :D You are correct. I scrolled down to Gary's, "Do No Guns Signs have the force of law in Virginia." Answer, No.

It was a mistake stopping there. The hidden agenda behind it , the trespassing trap, was in another bullet. Gary should link the two together to avoid, as Frank has stated:

I think Gary has confused things here.

Without that confusion, the ongoing conversation we had last night would have never taken place. Hopefully, we can now put this subject to a peaceful sleep.

Too much football and baseball going on to exacerbate this discussion.

As I said in the previous post, Frank and yourself have done all of us that live in, or visit Virginia with guns, a good service. I don't dole out compliments like Burger King pours out Whoppers! :what: And as I also said:

From now on, those signs will be treated as trespassing and I'll just mosey on by to the next establishment or parking lot that is sans possible disaster.

I will not be the test case either.

So, a pat on the back from this ex-San Francisco, Californian to you! ;)

Red Wind :)
 
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I DO agree with that we shouldn't have to read between the lines. Gary does great work and his site is generally the only one I use...but I always check the States site too.

I would need to double check, but memory tells me that Gary's site cautions you to read the applicable state laws for yourself and not take his info as gospel truth. He does all he can to be accurate, but that is a lot of changes to keep up with.
 
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