use of subsonic 9 mm for home defence out of full size pistol

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vaupet

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Frangible ammo is forbidden in our part of the world,so I wonder if subsonic ammo is a good choice for HD.
My pistol of choice being a standard HK USP9.

As HD means shooting a handgun inside the house, with several walls being drywall, I worry about overpenetration and noise and flash.

Do I need alterations on the psitol to shoot this ammo without a suppressor? (reliable feeding?)

What are your views on this mather?
 
Subsonic doesn't reduce the blast effect of 12,000 psi being emitted from the muzzle.

As for HD use, an alternate view has been in force for the last 100 years, and it is that bullets DO need to penetrate concealment so that a hit is delivered. Most ammo does that - it's a false premise that there is any advantage to having "low penetration ammo." What that means is that the intruder can shoot YOU hiding behind a wall or piece of furniture, but you have deliberately chosen to limit your ability. Since his bullets are flying around the neighborhood regardless, you have an imperative need to stop them shooting. You NEED your bullets to penetrate their concealment and hit them. It's more important to stop them shooting.

There are also tactical considerations - you know your home, it's layout, and where the most likely lanes of fire will be. Walk the house with an eye for where you might seek concealment and likely return fire. What is the backstop if you do that? The street? Neighbors living room window? Their childrens bedroom? Turn around 180 degrees, now, and see where the perps bullets might go. Your bedroom where your family is hiding? It's really nice you might choose low penetration ammo but here we are again, it's only half the problem, and the perps aren't making those choices. If anything they could show up with armor piercing. You need to stop them as quickly as you can rather than trade rounds and have them fire even more bullets to strike innocent people.

It also goes to why hole up in a home at all if you can safely exit it? There's not much reason to stay - go out the back and move down the block if you can. The longer you trade shots with someone else, the higher the probability YOU get hit, or your family. Why increase the risk by staying inside?

If you did plan on staying, then it better be in a solid masonry construction home with walls, defensible openings, gun ports, etc. In short, something along the lines of a medieval castle crossed with third world compound. If a home is traditional American stick built construction, it's going to get riddled like Swiss cheese, period. American home construction is as flimsy as it gets, built entirely for fast assembly and low cost, with finish given much higher priority than substance. Very few would stand up to 100 mph winds much less a two man entry team determined to get in. Better to spend the money on security window film and normal defense ammo that chase some fraudulent notions of low penetration ammo down that rabbit hole.

Since there will be noise and blast directed at you, being downrange from an intruder's discharge, then adopting a different plan for hearing protection would be in order. What do the pros do? The guys who would respond to your distress call for help? First, they would be wearing active hearing protection with built in communications. Second, the would likely be using RIFLE ammunition with the intent to penetrate whatever is in the way to hit the intruders.

There is our guidelines, it's the program that has been in existence since modern warfare moved door to door in built up areas.
 
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Most 147gr 9mm rounds are subsonic, and there are several types of 147gr defensive rounds that are earning a good reputation. I do not know what is available in your area, but if there are 147gr hollow points available, you can search online to see if they perform well.

To determine whether any particular round will feed well in your pistol, you will need to shoot a bunch of them. Some pistols do not feed 147gr rounds well due to the shapes of the bullets, but many pistols will shoot these rounds just fine. I suspect your H&K pistol will feed them, but they definitely need to be tested. No modifications should be required to feed 147gr rounds. These rounds are subsonic due to using a heavy for caliber bullet, but they are still full power rounds. They will generate plenty of power to cycle the slide.

However, I am not sure there will be a real advantage to using 147gr rounds. Since they are subsonic, they may be slightly quieter if they are fired indoors, but they will still be very loud. And 147gr rounds will penetrate many layers of drywall. In fact 147gr rounds may be more penetrating through some materials due to the bullets being heavier relative to their surface area (sectional density). Any 9mm round which has the penetration which is needed for effective defense will also penetrate deeply through soft building materials.

If you find special subsonic ammo which is designed to be lower powered than standard ammo, I would not recommend it for defense. 9mm had a terrible reputation as a defensive round until modern hollow points were developed. Good defensive 9mm rounds will be at least standard pressure, and many of them will be +P.
 
Most standard pressure 147 grain 9mm ammo should be subsonic out of a full sized pistol and if you're using an HK you shouldn't have any reason to expect feeding or cycling trouble (but you should always run the ammo through your gun to test, there are some guns that just don't like certain bullets/loads for one reason or another). If you do experience any issues, try a different brand of ammo before messing around with the gun.

That said, if you're not using a suppressor, there is no reason to specifically use subsonic ammo. You're still looking at 155-160 ish dB at the muzzle unsuppressed, which is very similar to normal subsonic ammo (i.e. painful and causes loss of hearing - and even if you experience auditory exclusion, you'll still lose some hearing). If your aim is to protect your ears by using subs, you're not going to achieve that goal with just using subsonic ammo. You will need either a suppressor or normal ear pro.

As far as limiting penetration, generally subsonic ammo is going to have the same penetration as supersonic ammo (at least as far as pistols are concerned, rifles are another matter). Defensive subsonic ammo is tested against the same penetration standards as supersonic ammo, so it is designed to achieve the same amount of penetration. I would advise against looking for low penetration ammo for SD. If the ammo is going to be able to do what it needs to do to a bad guy, it's gonna be able to punch through normal building materials. There's no way around that. If you choose low penetration ammo, it is unlikely that it will actually be able to force the attacker to stop.
 
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There is nothing special about subsonic 9mm rounds. Going below the sound barrier doesn't make them act any different. They are just heavy and slow, as opposed to light and fast.

The current FBI 9mm load is a bonded 147gr subsonic that both expands well and penetrates barriers well (like auto glass). If you are looking for a round that tends to not penetrate as much, I would go in the other direction and look at 115gr bonded hollow points. None of these rounds are going to stop in drywall, but the lighter rounds might stop sooner.

The best thing you can do is have a mental map of fields of fire that present a high likelihood of hurting someone and keep that in mind (consider the vertical angles as well as horizontal). And, of course, practice so you have a high likelihood of hitting your target rather than the walls.
 
I agree for the most part with Tirod, you need penetration from ammo - the FBI thinks so. This position that non-penetrating ammo is good, has very little validity. Go watch the movie John Wick and let me know how different that movie would be if he had non-penetrating ammo. I know it is a movie but it show how gun fighting is brutal and tactics need to be dynamic. If you are in a gun fight, bring competent ammo with you. Not some watered down excuse ammo. Better yet and for laughs, call the local police station and ask them if they would carry substandard (low velocity) ammo. Let us know how that goes.
 
The needs of the FBI and the legitimate concerns of a homeowner about overpenetration are very different things. Especially when you understand how much angled hits to auto glass fits into the equation.

A full power round featuring a lighter (115-124gr) bullet is not an ineffective self defense round, nor are they going to have trouble passing through the barriers found in homes, like drywall. But they may not go through floors as easily and hit your kids.

The FBI is not concerned with such things.
 
Good points guys and gals BUT!!!!
the OP says he cant use frangible ammo and for good reason! He lives in Europe, Belgium to be exact. (Checked his profile)
Lets give the OP advice on the best he can do within the constraints hes having to work with.
Subsonic rounds such as the 147G 9mm are not to be sneezed at, and would provide a decent defence round for his situation.
 
exbrit49 said:
Good points guys and gals BUT!!!!
the OP says he cant use frangible ammo and for good reason! He lives in Europe, Belgium to be exact. (Checked his profile)
Lets give the OP advice on the best he can do within the constraints hes having to work with.
Subsonic rounds such as the 147G 9mm are not to be sneezed at, and would provide a decent defence round for his situation.
Click to expand...
Who has suggested anything but standard hollow point loads?
 
As HD means shooting a handgun inside the house, with several walls being drywall, I worry about overpenetration and noise and flash.
Click to expand...

If shooting through a wall and hitting your kid in the next room is a concern (and in my opinion, it should be) then the watchwords for conventional ammunition are "heavy and slow". Fire the heaviest bullet you can at the lowest velocity that will still ensure your pistol functions reliably and you will have come close to an optimal SD load for your particular circumstances.

In the United States, we can use rounds such as the Glaser Safety Slug which is a bullet jacket filled with shot. They are designed to not penetrate a wall, but are designed to cause large, shallow wounds on the target that, in most cases, have the highest potential for taking the target out of the fight while still being minimally lethal. As she SD shooter, this saves your life while protecting you from having to defend yourself against a "wrongful death" civil lawsuit.
 
hdwhit said:
If shooting through a wall and hitting your kid in the next room is a concern (and in my opinion, it should be) then the watchwords for conventional ammunition are "heavy and slow". Fire the heaviest bullet you can at the lowest velocity that will still ensure your pistol functions reliably and you will have come close to an optimal SD load for your particular circumstances.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting an actually available commercial loading? I don't think any commercial SD ammo is going to be as slow as what you're suggesting.
 
The premise is that a bullet will penetrate the wall structure and hit innocents. Yes, it will. Your ammo is just one part of it - the intruders ammo will, too. You need to stop them as quickly as possible because their continued firing of rounds is the more dangerous problem. You know where you are firing - OR SHOULD - as it's already part of the 4 basic rules of safety. Know where your bullets will go and what is beyond the target, right? The perp could care less,

Unless you force your family to frequently rehearse situations, what will happen is uncontrolled panic and chaos. As seen in every publicly recorded shooting, people choose to run thru and into shooting lanes where rounds are traveling. In point of fact, that is exactly the reason for the US Army switching to 5.56 as the soldier can carry and fire more round, increasing the number of UN aimed hits beyond the targeted opponent. People walk into fire almost as much as they are shot at.

If you family hears gunfire in the house, they should know and be trained to drop to the floor, not start running around and going out the front door where the perps are hiding and you are firing. Home defense solutions aren't about which is the best ammo, it's all about which is the best defense plan. Ammo is so far down the list It's not important. And attempting to choose ammo that will not likely penetrate is looking for the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. There is no market for low penetration ammo, therefore, none exists.

What ammo does the FBR HRT team use? Really of no consequence, they won't show up for you or the OP. The rescuers will use what service ammo they are issued, and LEOs/PD/s aren't issuing low penetration ammo. They use full power guaranteed penetration ammo to hit the perps and stop the fight as soon as possible. That is the professional recommendation and most cities are fine with it, liability and all. Even if YOU get hit by their bullets.

I know, gun forum means thinking only about the gun and ammo. In terms of HD that is a false notion and one that is highly risky at that. Buy normal ammo and consider 1) why are you being targeted at all 2) how to fix that problem and most importantly 3) how to reinforce the home itself to be secure in the first place. If they can't get in at all the money is better spent.
 
txs for the replies so far,
I think i will buy a box and test it on my range, just to know how it shoots.
After a brief study of the 147 gr balistics, it would seem to me that its shooting should feel more like a 45acp, which is 'smoother', the full 9mm being "snapier", so a little easier to control, a bit softer on the hearing (no supersonic boom), and probably just as effective on 3 to 5 metre distance that you get inside a home.
 
Never could understand why someone would turn a perfectly good 9mm into a 38spl???

As already stated you bring what you bring/ they bring what they bring. You've under gunned yourself and they brought hand cannons/shotguns & mike tyson.

Stopping the threat is #1, if penetration is an issue a shotgun is a fearsome piece of hardware to bring to a close quartered gunfight.

A link to different calibers and the result from gunfights. 3000+ documented shooting with a 9mm. The worst ammo to use was the 147gr bullets and these were the high performance bullets. The fmj's are worse and the low moving 147gr fmj's are the worst (lookup 38spl data).
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp

More interesting reading with lab test results. Testing different 9mm ammo in gel/drywall/cardoors/cloth/bone/etc
http://www.brassfetcher.com/

The best defense in a gunfight is a strong offence, stop the threat.

Myself, I grab the hardest hitting firearms I feel comfortable with. Namely a shotgun with buckshot and deer slugs and either a 357/44spl/9mm as a last resort. In my little neck of the woods they tend to run in packs sending 2 or 3 in and leave 1 outside. While your dancing/engaging with what's inside the outside guy is lining you up thru windows or simply spraying the walls in your direction.

If you plan on sticking with the 9mm federal has a expanding fmj bullet. It is not a hp or a frag design. It a fmj that's designed to expand that:
stops over penetration
maximizes stopping power of your 9mm
http://www.bing.com/images/search?q...federal+expanding+full+metal+jacket&FORM=IGRE
 
forrest r said:
A link to different calibers and the result from gunfights. 3000+ documented shooting with a 9mm. The worst ammo to use was the 147gr bullets and these were the high performance bullets. The fmj's are worse and the low moving 147gr fmj's are the worst (lookup 38spl data).
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp

More interesting reading with lab test results. Testing different 9mm ammo in gel/drywall/cardoors/cloth/bone/etc
http://www.brassfetcher.com/
Click to expand...
Okay, this is ridiculous. EVERYONE has rejected the results of the Marshall Sanow findings.

Your second link contains a whole section on the FBI protocols, but doesn't have any of the most current findings.

Ammunition changes over time. The only thing that an old study tells us is what ammunition was like in the past. Modern ammunition works differently, and you have to pay attention to what's happening now rather than making general pronouncements about a particular caliber based on what happened in the '80s, or in the Philippines in 1900. A caliber is just a platform - it isn't a fixed set of performance specifics.
 
Odd, a link to what EVERYONE thought about the Marshall Sanow findings on this website.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-21184.html

I merely put info out there for the op who is worried about penetration with a caliber that is known for just that. Penetration with fmj ammo.

If you have a hard time reading or understanding any of the info I posted, why don't you post the "LATEST GREATEST" findings???

What I find RIDICULOUS is when someone adds nothing to a discussion when a poll on this website had %60 of the people using/agreeing with the info I posted.

You advice:
If it wasn't tested today, don't believe it. Everything that was tested last week/last year is bs.

My advice:
Choose another firearm/caliber or use a fmj bullet that is designed to expand.
 
I don't understand the suggestions that subsonic 147 grain 9mm loads are watered down or under-penetrating. It is true that 147 grain 9mm Luger cartridges had a poor reputation in years past, but projectile technology has advanced and there are a number of 147 grain JHP loads that demonstrate excellent expansion and penetration. If anything, 147 grain JHP loads can be over-penetrating if the reduced muzzle velocity results in failure to expand.

Luckygunner uses a consistent testing protocol. Here are the results of their 9mm ballistic testing: http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#9mm

Federal HST 147 grain standard pressure and +P both performed very well and the Winchester 147 grain Ranger-T was quite impressive.

I prefer 124 grain JHP for self-defense partly because they are more widely available but also because I usually use 124 grain FMJ for practice and I prefer a SD load with similar recoil characteristics for training purposes.
 
forrest r said:
Choose another firearm/caliber or use a fmj bullet that is designed to expand.
Click to expand...
FMJ is not designed to expand. Full Metal Jacket refers specifically to a non-expanding bullet.

Your whole post seems to be written with very little understanding of the topic.

And you should read that poll you linked to. That 60% you're talking don't take Marshall as gospel, but only a guide.
 
Thanks for the info sofar.
I can't use frangible ammo, it is strictly forbidden for handgun use in Belgium (as in most parts of Europe, i think). Non-frangible hollow point, like the Geco Hexagon, is even under discussing, because a lot of people say hollow points are forbidden for handgun use.

I was thinking about the 150 grs subsonic Sellier & Bellot FMJ.
When you compare ballistics, it has about 10% less energy then a 45 acp FMJ 230 grs.
http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/en/pro...-and-revolver-cartridges/products/detail/283/

that is significantly more then most 158 grs 38specials FMJ's and almost double the energy of 380ACP.

On the side: can you get a license for a silencer for handgun use inthe US?
 
Silencers are regulated in the USA. Paperwork, a long delay for review, and a $200 transfer tax are required for each one.

The main advantage of the S&B Subsonic you link to is not its weight or velocity but its flat point. Everybody from George Luger to the US Air Force has studied the flatpointed bullet to increase impact and "stopping power" with a non-expanding bullet. Hatcher concluded it had a 10% advantage over a roundnose. You would have to shoot enough to be confident of it feeding reliably in your pistol. That is one reason the USAF bullet was not adopted, it could not be counted on to feed in all the many 9mms issued by NATO.
 
RX-79G said:
FMJ is not designed to expand. Full Metal Jacket refers specifically to a non-expanding bullet.
In you're little universe, Federal came out with an expanding fmj in 2010.
This is what federal has to say:
rounds are specifically engineered for home protection use. The fully enclosed bullet nose is filled with an expanding polymer that minimizes over-penetration through interior walls—reducing the risk to loved ones.

Your whole post seems to be written with very little understanding of the topic.
WOW!!! You couldn't be more wrong. The op asked about HD ammo that couldn't frag and was worried about going thru drywall, etc.
Federal made this ammo specifically for the op's needs.
• Optimized for home defense
• No hollow point to plug and block expansion
• Internal skived jacket with rubber front core
• Patented FMJ-like construction
• High velocity with low recoil
• Reduced probability of serious injury to bystanders in other rooms or houses
• Exceptional feed and function in semi-automatic handguns
• Works well under a wide range of velocities
• Large frontal expansion through all barriers

And you should read that poll you linked to. That 60% you're talking don't take Marshall as gospel, but only a guide.
I don't take it as gospel either, merely something to read, study & draw my own conclusions. If a person look at the data for 1 caliber they just limited themselves. If they look at the data for 4 or 5 popular sd/hd calibers they will see a pattern. If YOU don't like what Marshall wrote then don't read it. When you make statements like EVERYONE, nothing could be further from the truth.
http://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/handgun/family/guard-dog/guard-dog/
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for the info sofar.
I can't use frangible ammo, it is strictly forbidden for handgun use in Belgium (as in most parts of Europe, i think). Non-frangible hollow point, like the Geco Hexagon, is even under discussing, because a lot of people say hollow points are forbidden for handgun use.

I was thinking about the 150 grs subsonic Sellier & Bellot FMJ.
When you compare ballistics, it has about 10% less energy then a 45 acp FMJ 230 grs.
http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/en/pro...-and-revolver-cartridges/products/detail/283/

that is significantly more then most 158 grs 38specials FMJ's and almost double the energy of 380ACP.
Click to expand...

Is jacketed hollow point 9mm Parabellum ammo prohibited for civilian use in Belgium?
 
Vaupet, I respect the thought and consideration you have put into choosing your ammo. I also like your choice of the H&K VP9. But based on the constraints you have given, I will offer some additional thoughts even though they may not fit with your needs.

Many people now think that 9mm is one of the best choices for a defensive caliber. But that belief is based on being able to choose modern defensive ammunition. I personally think that a 9mm with premium ammo is the best choice for most people. But if I was required to choose FMJ ammo, then I would choose a 45 ACP for defense. No caliber performs very well with FMJ ammo, 45 ACP FMJ will outperform any smaller caliber.

Of course, choosing handguns always involves compromise, and based on your comments, I am sure you will make a good compromise based on your needs. The flat pointed 9mm does seem like a reasonable choice based on your requirements.
 
I'm with Jim Watson.
If you can't use expanding ammunition, find whichever load uses a bullet with the widest meplat.
If you can find someone selling Semi-wadcutter, or full wadcutters loaded to standard pressure you should be good to go.
Truncated cone bullets may be as close as you can find in your locale, but would be the next best thing.
FMJ's are gonna over penetrate in a close range self-defense situation and the pointier rounded nose of most 9mm's is gonna leave a wound like an ice-pick. The larger the meplat, the wider the permanent wound channel will be.
 
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