S&W M27 vs M627

I don't believe it would be longer. All the 627 as far as I know is just a stainless 27, yes there is some specialties out there but they mainly deal with the barrel or grips, only deal with the cylinder would be fluted or non fluted but the size will be the same.

27's 28's and 29's all have the same length cylinder, regardless of dashes or prefixes. The various .45 acp N frames did/do have shorter cylinders with the barrels set back.

I'll grab up a random K frame .357 from the safe and measure the cylinder, but I'd imagine it is the same length or maybe a bit shorter than an N frame. I suspect a K frame .38 spl would have a shorter cylinder to preclude the use of .357 mag ammo.

I'm a little confused. Are you speaking of the overall external length of the entire cylinder or the depth of each charging hole to the head space?

For FWIW, I have both a mod 27 , 627 and a 327. I have never had trouble with any ammo built to maximum spec ( 1.590") fitting in any of them. What particular bullet are you speaking of that gave you trouble? Was it factory or reload?

I have measurements for all my revos, including a 27-2 and a 627-5PC as well as a 686SSR. The length of the 27-2 cylinder with recessed chambers is 1.625”. The length of the 627PC is 1.577” without recessed chambers. With a nominal recess depth of 0.060”, the equivalent length of the 627 is 1.637”. The length of the 686SSR is 1.623” with an additional 0.060” for a total equivalent length of 1.683”.


Is that important? You tell me.


By way of comparison, my 629 Mtn Gun is 1.710” without recessed chambers and my Redhawk and Super Redhawk are both 1.750” without recessed chambers.

You probably read about the N-Frame .357 Magnum cylinders being a trifle short, which was a surprise to me. Both the K-Frame and L-Frame Smith & Wessons have longer cylinders. Its for this reason that I say the Model 586 is my favorite, and best DA .357 Magnum revolver to come out yet, bar none.

I learned this long ago when I was shooting the 173 gr. Keith SWC bullets, seated in the crimping groove in .357 cases. Iwas shooting these in my Ruger Blackhawks and loaded some into my Python. The bullet noses protruded from the front face of the cylinder. Then tried the old pre-Model 27 that belonged to my friend and the same thing occurred. Then loaded, and shot these in a Model 19. That's what prompted me to buy the Model 586, among other features.

So, yes, the Model 27, and 627, will not digest the long cartridges. And the Model 586 will handle anything that the 27 will, and then some.

Bob Wright

As to the importance of the difference, that's all the .357 Magnum ammunition I had with me at that time. The bullets protruded enough out of the face of the cylinder as to bind up cylinder rotation. I had my Ruger Blackhawk and my Colt Python, and my son-in-law had his Model 19, and his dad had his Python and a pre-Model 27. This was long before the L-Frame was introduced. I made sure the L-Frame had enough cylinder length to handle my handloads before buying one. Shortly after, I bough another 586 and swapped off my Python.

The S&W 27, 3.5" was the flagship of S&W for many years. It was carried by many including General Patton and the FBI.

The short version, the l & k frame 357mag cylinders are longer then the 27/627/28 cylinders.

The somewhat longer version:
S&W made their 27 with pinned bbl's and recessed cylinder until 1981. Then they switched to a "crush" fit bbl and standard cylinders.
Recessed ='s 1.62"
non-recessed ='s 1.57"
What the big deal in the cylinder change? The recessed cylinders supported the cases better for full house loads.
The k/l frame revolvers use a 1.62" cylinder that is not recessed.
1.620" - 1.570" ='s 50/1000th's

Then add to the mix that s&w got the bright idea "Why not use the extra cylinder diameter on the n-frame???"
j-frame ='s 1.446/five shot max
l-frame ='s 1.559"/seven shot max
n-frame ='s 1.710"/eight shot max

Then just for the heck of it the got back to the recessed/non-recessed cylinders, moon clip time. The easiest way to tell if a 627 cylinder is recessed is to look at the amount of bbl sticking out the frame. A link to 2 different n-frame cylinder's fluted vs non-flutted, note the bbl lengths inside the frame in front of the cylinder.
http://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2015/09/enhanced-snubbies-smith-wesson-model-627-327-revolvers/

At the end of the day all n-frame cylinders are not created equal. A 44mag clyinder is a lot longer then it's 357 counterpart. Same frame, same cylinder diameter, different lengths due to performance & accuracy from the difference in max saami oal's/bullet jump. 357 1.590" vs 44mag 1.610".

On a side note:
This is why the model and dash #'s are important when looking for replacement parts. Different cylinder lengths ='s different bbl shoulder lengths. Add to the the +/- .003" specs for the cylinders gap. The recommended "target #) bbl gap is 3/1000th's, for every 1/1000th's over that you loose 10fps for every 1,1000th's. Used to love the older 27's with the fully supported cylinders (1.620" recessed) and the pinned bbl's. Would set them up with 2/1000th's cylinder gap, couple that with the shorter freebore of the cylinders and the end result is one heck of a shooter.
Something else to think about, the dan wesson 14,15,715's have
recessed cylinders
bbl gaps that can be set from 1/1000th to 7/1000th
Tension free bbl's.

ClemY said:

Is that important? You tell me.

Click to expand...

It is if you want to shoot the Keith bullet, which doesn't fit in N-frame .357's unless .38Spl cases are used. Hence the continued use of .38-44 level handloads long after the introduction of the .357Mag.

The problem comes from using the true Keith style bullets in .357 cases fired in models 27 and 28. The cylinders on these revolvers are just shorter then the K or L frames. In this instance you have to crimp over the top driving band to avoid problems or use .38 Spl cases. I once made the statement that Keith must have had rocks in his head for designing a bullet so long. However, the Keith bullet was introduced to be used in .38 Spl cases.

It's not a big deal as long as you know this before loading the bullet in .357 cases. I didn't at the time.

^^Lyman mentioned it in at least one of their manuals that I recall. They suggested loading slightly short, crimping on or just over the front band when using magnum cases in the Smith 27. As noted, the extra-long Lyman 358421(?) bullets work OK in several other models, so nobody ever got too worked up about it. Lyman also had a couple other 357 bullets, and I think they work fine when seated to the crimp groove.

One advantage of the original Keith bullets was they tended to have more of the bullet out of the case, effectively making a little more case capacity, which would have the effect of lowering pressures for a given load. Not a huge deal, just a bit of a side benefit if running towards the top end of the load spectrum. Interestingly, Keith got a reputation for pushing things to the limit, but the books Ive read of his, he did experiment with heavy loads in various things, but after finding what he felt was practical limits, also stated that his 44 mag load was well below factory load pressure (for the day), and he was happy to leave it so. He also mentioned similar comments I believe for 357 max loads. The first factory 357 magnum loads were quite hot, running 1500+ fps from an 8 3/8" barrel, later dropped down somewhat, at least twice I believe. Todays factory 158 gr 357 mag loads seem pretty mild compared to the early loads.

I used to have a casting business a few years ago. I warned anyone ordering the Keith 358421 bullet about using them in the N frames. Can't recall anyone having a problem with these bullets in any revolver other then the S&W N frames.

ArchAngel, that bullet was one of the best I ever shot out of a .357. Depending on the mix of lead it weighed 172 gr and could be driven as fast as a jacketed 158 gr. As Malamute wrote most of the bullet was outside the case leaving room for a good dose of powder with no pressure problems.

Most were shooting them out of .38 Spl cases using 13.5 gr of 2400. I ran that same load out of .357 cases as I did not want someone trying to shoot that load in a .38 Spl. When loaded in .357 cases I would crimp over the top driving band. The 627 should have the same cylinder length as a 27 or 28.

Not even sure if anyone is selling that bullet commercially anymore.

montana bullet works sells the lyman 358429 (170gn) semi-wadcutter bullet.

murf

I doubt the 180 gr bullet will have a problem in the shorter cylinder. As Malamute posted, on the 358421 bullet there is a lot of bullet outside of the case, no other bullets that I know are like that.

The photo I posted shows the 172 gr bullet along side of a 158 gr. You can see the difference in length.