Todd Orr Bear Attack Update: Why he didn't shoot...

Status
Not open for further replies.
The National Park Service tried many times to ban the carrying of handguns in the back country. After many deaths and injuries they have been over ruled. Wyoming G&F now encourages Bow hunters to carry handguns while hunting in Grizz country. These Chemical companies continue to push for no firearms. Use the Non Lethal Bear spray only. Why? Just carry what ever you feel comfortable with. :)

You have made this claim about the "chemical companies" before. Can you please post something that supports this? Post something to support this claim that you continually make. Just saying it over and over again doesn't make it so.

Regarding the Wyoming G&F comment. This quote below is directly from their website. In fact, the only thing they are encouraging hunters to carry is bear spray, by my reading of it.

Where are you getting your information from? Where are they recommending a handgun specifically? Please provide a source.

And before you say it, asking for someone to support claims that they continually make is not a "personal attack."
10/10/2016 7:35:38 AM

CHEYENNE - While hunting or enjoying the outdoors this fall, stay safe by being alert for signs of bears. Hunters, especially, should be cautious in the backcountry while pursuing game and be prepared in the event of a bear encounter.

“Hunters move quietly, camouflage their bodies, mask their human scent, are active at dawn and dusk, and use game calls to mimic what bears consider prey. All of these behaviors make hunters successful, but at the same time, there is an inherent risk of attracting bears or bumping into one,” said Dusty Lasseter, Bear Wise community coordinator for the Wyoming Game and Fish Department.

To improve the odds of minimizing conflicts, Game and Fish recommends people:

  • Carry a bear deterrent, and know how to use it. Many aggressive bears have been deterred through the use of bear spray. Hunters should carry bear spray where it can be reached and know how, and when, to use it.
  • Make sure your bear spray is EPA approved and not a generic or “knock-off” spray that may prove faulty.
  • Hunt with a partner and stay within sight of each other.
  • Remain alert and watchful for bear activity; avoid “tunnel vision” while pursuing game.
  • Learn to recognize bear signs such as scat, tracks, and diggings.
  • Know where seasonal food sources are present and either avoid or be especially cautious in those areas.
  • Be aware that the presence of ravens and other scavengers is a good indication that a potential food source is nearby and a bear may be in the area. Avoid these areas if possible.
Hunters should also practice safe handling and retrieval of game. Following these processes can help minimize a bear conflict:
  • Retrieve game animals as quickly as possible and watch for approaching bears when field dressing and quartering. The longer game is in the field, at camp, or in the back of a vehicle the more likely it is to be discovered by a bear.
  • Quarter and hang the carcass in a tree at least 10’ to 15’ from the ground and 4’ from the tree trunk. Separate the carcass from the entrails and place the carcass in an area that can be safely viewed from a distance, if game must be left on the ground overnight,.
  • When retrieving game, make noise; use binoculars to search the area for bears and to determine if the game has been disturbed by bears prior to walking in on the carcass.
  • Be aware that bears often set up a daybed near food sources.
  • If a bear has claimed your carcass, leave the scene and report the incident to Game and Fish. Do not attempt to scare the bear away.
  • Remember that bears actively defend their food, their young, and their personal space. During the fall, all bears are on the lookout for food before going to winter slumber.
“Human safety is the first concern in any bear encounter,” Lasseter said. “Bear spray is an effective deterrent and we encourage all hunters to carry and, when appropriate, using bear spray.”

Game and Fish also recommends having a ‘bear aware’ plan in place in case hunters see a bear. More safety information is available on the Game and Fish Bear Wise Wyoming website.

“The most important tool people can use when hunting and recreating in bear country is their brain. Everyone should practice maintaining an awareness of their surroundings and knowing how to react to potential bear encounters, ” Lasseter said.

Hunters can call a Game and Fish regional office to learn more about the bears in their hunt areas and ask questions about bear safety. Any human-bear conflicts should be reported to Game and Fish as soon as possible. To report an incident, call your local Game and Fish Office, or the Game and Fish Stop Poaching Hotline:1-877-WGFD-TIP (943-3857).


(Wyoming Game and Fish (307) 777-4600)

- WGFD -
 
Last edited:
I appreciate the explanation, but not the rationalization.

Answer…
1. I am a hunter and an outdoorsman and I do not shoot a bear just to kill it.

No, you shoot to protect your life.See #2

2. It is illegal to shoot a Grizzly bear unless you can prove you were defending your life.
That is exactly what you needed to be doing - protecting your life. Another case of being more worried about potential legal consequences of one's actions instead of being worried about protecting one's own life.

3. I certainly wouldn’t care to shoot a sow with young, defenseless cubs that would likely not survive the winter without their mother, unless necessary to protect my life.
See #2

4. Bear spray has been proven to be more effective than a pistol at stopping a bear charge.
I am not familiar with said proof. I do know the study where bear spray was found to be effective in stopping "aggressive behavior" but not necessarily charges. The failure of 'guns' (not pistols) in the study was one of deployment time more than anything else, particularly with slung rifles.

5. The quickness of the charge and uncommon behavior did not trigger the thought of using the gun before the bear spray.

Hmmm.

6. Shooting a Grizzly charging at up to 40mph with a pistol and with accuracy is nearly impossible.
Given that the grizzly is charging toward you (assuming it was actually going full speed), the shot isn't as difficult. Speed is much less of an accuracy concern for a target running right at you since the target perspective doesn't change nearly so much as one moving laterally.

7. I carried a large, heavy, scoped handgun made for hunting and not an easy quick-draw, self defense type pistol.
Significant mistake. So he went on a hike, not hunting, carrying a hunting pistol not useful for self defense against bears in grizzly country.

8. Shooting a charging bear at close range while aiming through a handgun scope is nearly impossible.
No point shooting capability either?

Additionally, a bear has a very thick and sloped skull that is not easily penetrated with a bullet even by an excellent marksman.

Bear skulls are not particularly thick or difficult to penetrate. Most of the bear skull is much thinner than a human skull. Yes, they are sloped. Most animal skulls are. The real problem here is that the skull is much smaller than the "head" as perceived under all the hair and soft tissue.


Not many people practice shooting at a target full of teeth and claws on a surprise attack at up to 40mph. Think about it…
True, but the teeth and claws aspect is probably not fully relevant here. He had the frame of mind to draw and use pepper spray against a target full of teeth and claws and so he most certainly could have had the frame of mind to draw a pistol. Most people just don't plain practice for any sort of attack, assuming they brought a gun they could have even used. People in bear country should be prepared for such attacks. Think about it.


He didn't carry a gun for defense. The gun wasn't set up for defense. He didn't have quick access for defense. He didn't practice with it for defense. The gun was never a real consideration for defense. That would appear to be the real reason he didn't use his gun.

I found this in Field and Stream and found it interesting...

Draw Your Weapon
At 50 to 70 yards, a surprised bear may show aggression. Draw your pepper spray and remove the trigger guard. Talk in low tones, avoid eye contact, and back slowly away. If the bear follows, drop your pack to distract it. Climb a tree if possible.


Spray and Pray
If the bear persists, give it a 1-second burst of spray at 40 feet. If the bear gets closer or charges, spray another 1-second burst at 15 feet. At 8 feet, empty the canister into the bear's face.
https://books.google.com/books?id=CoEHnQGkmccC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=If+the+bear+persists,+give+it+a+1-second+burst+of+spray+at+40+feet.+If+the+bear+gets+closer+or+charges,+spray+another+1-second+burst+at+15+feet.+At+8+feet,+empty+the+canister+into+the+bear's+face.&source=bl&ots=-xNxXLA-OF&sig=nD77SZJLvSOFr7pnLG5mOpv0TcI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcw4uQj_zPAhVIZCYKHR7OC0IQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=If the bear persists, give it a 1-second burst of spray at 40 feet. If the bear gets closer or charges, spray another 1-second burst at 15 feet. At 8 feet, empty the canister into the bear's face.&f=false

Well, at 40 mph, a 1 second burst at 40 feet will mean the bear is on you about 1/3 of a second before you have finished that 1 second burst.
it makes me laugh when I read replies on this subject where some would shoot the bear. you cannot stop a grizzly bear charging with a pistol. 90% of people would soil their pants be shaking so much any way. this guy has steel in his nerves and he is right if he shot the bear even fatally it would have plenty of time to tear him to pieces. He is a decent person and I am glad he survived
 
Last edited:
it makes me laugh when I read replies on this subject where some would shoot the bear. you cannot stop a grizzly bear charging with a pistol. 90% of people would soil their pants be shaking so much any way. this guy has steel in his nerves and he is right if he shot the bear even fatally it would have plenty of time to tear him to pieces. He is a decent person and I am glad he survived

Most of us KNOW that stopping a charging grizzly with a handgun is a crap shoot. The pepper spray didn't stop it either. You never really know what is going to happen from my way of thinking. So, we all would try to do what we think is best for our survival with what tools are readily available at the time.
 
Solo in big bear country presents problems unlike those encountered with 2 or more. Mainly you are all you have, there is no Cavalry to come in and flank the bears attack. With two there can be at least the possibility of more than one option and I believe the same probably tilts favorably towards the effectiveness of sprays.
I'd like to see how the success rates run against solo vs group when considering spray vs gun and killed vs maimed.
 
Most of us KNOW that stopping a charging grizzly with a handgun is a crap shoot. The pepper spray didn't stop it either. You never really know what is going to happen from my way of thinking. So, we all would try to do what we think is best for our survival with what tools are readily available at the time.
yes you are right but the pepper spray would have worked if he hit the bear in the face and it had to be real hard to do with the fog
 
I appreciate the explanation, but not the rationalization.

Answer…
1. I am a hunter and an outdoorsman and I do not shoot a bear just to kill it.

No, you shoot to protect your life.See #2

2. It is illegal to shoot a Grizzly bear unless you can prove you were defending your life.
That is exactly what you needed to be doing - protecting your life. Another case of being more worried about potential legal consequences of one's actions instead of being worried about protecting one's own life.

3. I certainly wouldn’t care to shoot a sow with young, defenseless cubs that would likely not survive the winter without their mother, unless necessary to protect my life.
See #2

4. Bear spray has been proven to be more effective than a pistol at stopping a bear charge.
I am not familiar with said proof. I do know the study where bear spray was found to be effective in stopping "aggressive behavior" but not necessarily charges. The failure of 'guns' (not pistols) in the study was one of deployment time more than anything else, particularly with slung rifles.

5. The quickness of the charge and uncommon behavior did not trigger the thought of using the gun before the bear spray.

Hmmm.

6. Shooting a Grizzly charging at up to 40mph with a pistol and with accuracy is nearly impossible.
Given that the grizzly is charging toward you (assuming it was actually going full speed), the shot isn't as difficult. Speed is much less of an accuracy concern for a target running right at you since the target perspective doesn't change nearly so much as one moving laterally.

7. I carried a large, heavy, scoped handgun made for hunting and not an easy quick-draw, self defense type pistol.
Significant mistake. So he went on a hike, not hunting, carrying a hunting pistol not useful for self defense against bears in grizzly country.

8. Shooting a charging bear at close range while aiming through a handgun scope is nearly impossible.
No point shooting capability either?

Additionally, a bear has a very thick and sloped skull that is not easily penetrated with a bullet even by an excellent marksman.

Bear skulls are not particularly thick or difficult to penetrate. Most of the bear skull is much thinner than a human skull. Yes, they are sloped. Most animal skulls are. The real problem here is that the skull is much smaller than the "head" as perceived under all the hair and soft tissue.


Not many people practice shooting at a target full of teeth and claws on a surprise attack at up to 40mph. Think about it…
True, but the teeth and claws aspect is probably not fully relevant here. He had the frame of mind to draw and use pepper spray against a target full of teeth and claws and so he most certainly could have had the frame of mind to draw a pistol. Most people just don't plain practice for any sort of attack, assuming they brought a gun they could have even used. People in bear country should be prepared for such attacks. Think about it.


He didn't carry a gun for defense. The gun wasn't set up for defense. He didn't have quick access for defense. He didn't practice with it for defense. The gun was never a real consideration for defense. That would appear to be the real reason he didn't use his gun.

I found this in Field and Stream and found it interesting...

Draw Your Weapon
At 50 to 70 yards, a surprised bear may show aggression. Draw your pepper spray and remove the trigger guard. Talk in low tones, avoid eye contact, and back slowly away. If the bear follows, drop your pack to distract it. Climb a tree if possible.


Spray and Pray
If the bear persists, give it a 1-second burst of spray at 40 feet. If the bear gets closer or charges, spray another 1-second burst at 15 feet. At 8 feet, empty the canister into the bear's face.
https://books.google.com/books?id=CoEHnQGkmccC&pg=PA26&lpg=PA26&dq=If+the+bear+persists,+give+it+a+1-second+burst+of+spray+at+40+feet.+If+the+bear+gets+closer+or+charges,+spray+another+1-second+burst+at+15+feet.+At+8+feet,+empty+the+canister+into+the+bear's+face.&source=bl&ots=-xNxXLA-OF&sig=nD77SZJLvSOFr7pnLG5mOpv0TcI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjcw4uQj_zPAhVIZCYKHR7OC0IQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=If the bear persists, give it a 1-second burst of spray at 40 feet. If the bear gets closer or charges, spray another 1-second burst at 15 feet. At 8 feet, empty the canister into the bear's face.&f=false

Well, at 40 mph, a 1 second burst at 40 feet will mean the bear is on you about 1/3 of a second before you have finished that 1 second burst.
TOTALLY AGREE.

And the FACT is he did not carry a "real gun " for the purpose of shooting a attacking critter [ could just as well been a rabid dog ].

The OC was a FAIL = the lesson to draw from this lucky man's experience is CARRY A REAL GUN, PRACTICE WITH IT,AND be prepared to use it and not the OC.

But that is my take away ,and it is my life to save.

I am much older and not able to run away,I am a shooting platform and I know my limitations.

Glad he survived to teach me a lesson,save the OC for smaller critters and ONLY if your life is not on the line.
 
it makes me laugh when I read replies on this subject where some would shoot the bear. you cannot stop a grizzly bear charging with a pistol. 90% of people would soil their pants be shaking so much any way. this guy has steel in his nerves and he is right if he shot the bear even fatally it would have plenty of time to tear him to pieces. He is a decent person and I am glad he survived

You make me laugh as well. I don't know why you quoted me. I never said he should have shot the bear. I just pointed out where Orr made some less adequate rationalizations and some absolutely handicapping decisions for not shooting the bear.

Keep in mind that the attacks (PLURAL) were not split second events. So this really isn't just about being charged (but that is part of it).

Bear spray certainly can be effective. I am inclined to believe the stats on bear spray efficacy are somewhat inflated, or at least there is a disconnect between what really went on and how people perceive it will work for them. Most of the bear spray incidents are not necessarily attacks at all, but simply described as "aggressive behavior." Bear spray is often utilized in stopping aggressive behavior in an activity that is called "hazing." The bears being hazed may be 'aggressive' with out being bears involved in attacking people. For example, bears have been hazed in campgrounds that bluff charged people who got too close to the bear as it rummaged garbage or ransacked a tent. The bear gets spray hazed and leaves the area. Now you have a positive datum point for bear spray working to stop "aggressive" behavior.

"Bluff" or "false" charges are another issue that is problematic for both spray, firearm, and other deterrent studies. With grizzlies, for example, Hererro notes that most charges are bluff charges and do NOT end in contact with a human. https://books.google.com/books?id=3...v=onepage&q=bear false charge herrero&f=false Bears may stop at very close distances (within a few yards) without ever making contact or may charge by humans without making contact without any deterrents being deployed. If a deterrent is used in a bluff charge incident and the bear does not attack, then a positive datum point gets recorded for the deterrent method used as being successful in stopping aggressive behavior. The problem here is that virtually none of the people being charged ever know if the charge is a bluff or an actual attack unless the event is allowed to play out without a deterrent method being used.
 
The OC was a FAIL = the lesson to draw from this lucky man's experience is CARRY A REAL GUN, PRACTICE WITH IT,AND be prepared to use it and not the OC.
Glad he survived to teach me a lesson,save the OC for smaller critters and ONLY if your life is not on the line.

Easy there, tiger. The size of the critter has nothing do with whether or not OC "fails." If the OC droplets do not come in contact with the mucous membranes of the mammal, for whatever reason (bear, human, or otherwise), it won't work. Not unlike when a bullet misses the target.

However, the size of the critter is absolutely a concern when choosing the proper firearm and load. A solo hiker/hunter with merely a pistol against a charging bear is really horrible odds. Unlike a lot of the Wyatt Earps that claim that they would stand tall and "drop'em" with a pistol, I under no such delusions. I know my limitations and understand human biology. I know how fine motor skills will completely deteriorate under a bear attack. Therefore, I want to stack the odds in my favor. Give me 2 cans of bear spray and the 12 gauge with slugs. Those two tools, coupled with exercising proper bear safety give you the best statical odds to survive a bear attack. The next best thing is staying home.
 
Last edited:
this incident has got me to thinking about how to set up a training situation to simulate an attack using a moving target directly towards me. I practice a lot on my own so often no second person to pull a string and target at me. Need something that is portable. Was thinking of trying to use an retractable electrical cord reel as a device to move a low target at me. Has anyone made such a setup or have any ideas?

Several years ago I made one with an old recycled commercial duty cord reel and a tether-ball for use at our private range on my oldest son's property. I believe I may have mentioned this in the last bear thread we had here. It worked well for years and the ball took relatively few hits. Folks had a problem always hitting high and behind it. Hard to get used to leading a target by shooting low, add to this the muzzle flip with a handgun and it was hard to get drawn down and follow thru without a lot of practice. Bird hunters know how hard it is to hit a bird coming at you, even with a shotgun. What made it even harder was the fact the ball did not come at you in a straight line like a clay pigeon, but bounced and changed directly slightly as it came at you.(similar to a running animal) Folks that think hitting a tether-ball sized target(about the kill zone of a bear) moving directly at you quickly is an easy proposition, have not tried it.
 
O.C. uses selective quotes to prove his Urban view of Bear protection agendas. The Bear Spray is proposed as a nonlethal method of stopping Bear attacks. It ignores the real danger to the human factor.
 
I believe the bluff attacks combined with abilities of shooters, fear of prosecution, and the Bambi effect sway the statistics.
Competent shooters have been stopping charges from dangerous game in Africa and Asia since gunpowder was invented but I've heard of no one there using spray.
 
I believe the bluff attacks combined with abilities of shooters, fear of prosecution, and the Bambi effect sway the statistics.
Competent shooters have been stopping charges from dangerous game in Africa and Asia since gunpowder was invented but I've heard of no one there using spray.

Unlike here, I don't think there are any agencies that track deaths from dangerous game in Africa. Most of the info we see is anecdotal evidence. Besides, hunting dangerous game is different than being attacked by them while doing something else. I wonder what the numbers are for folks living there and being attacked while not hunting and what their survival rate is. Probably much higher than those folks killed by bears here in the states. The few stats I could find claim about 100 folks are killed each year just by lions. Hippos kill the most folks. Bear attacks and their resulting deaths here in the states are pale in comparison. PHs are well practiced in the art of SD against dangerous game and generally use long guns. Still, anecdotal evidence tells us bearers, PHs and clients die every year. Again, much different than the average Joe walking in the woods with a big bore handgun holstered. We need to compare apples to apples here.

I agree tho, that bluff attacks skew the stats, especially in the case of Blackies. Bluff charges are a SMO for Black Bears. They run at you and then stop and stand.....giving someone with a firearm a good shot at a stationary target. If it had been a real charge, there would be no "easy" shot. Most folks in the woods with little experience with Black bears don't know what a bluff charge is. All they know is that if a bear runs at you, it's a charge. Hard not to shoot when the bear stops and calls your bluff, even if the bear retreats. Then there's those folks that claim the bear charged them just to justify shooting a bear. One reason our state does not allow folks to keep the hide/skull of bear killed because of claims of SD is because so many folks think they can use that excuse to shoot a bear when they don't have a permit or they are out of season.
 
I didn't mention hunting at all, I said competent shooters and charges. With hundreds killed annually Africa seems a perfect market for a product as effective as bear spray.
 
O.C. uses selective quotes to prove his Urban view of Bear protection agendas. The Bear Spray is proposed as a nonlethal method of stopping Bear attacks. It ignores the real danger to the human factor.

Tisk, tisk. There you go again skirting the questions. Have you no shame? You continue to make baseless claims in the short time you've been here, and then when asked to support them, by me and other members (about a variety of topics), you just ignore them. You never back them up.

I posted the entire page from the Wyoming G&F website, as well as scoured their entire site to see exactly where they "encourage bow hunters to carry handguns." Found nothing. So yeah, selective :cool:

I'll try again...

Where are you getting your information from? Where are they recommending a handgun specifically? Please provide a source.

Let the world in on where you are getting this information, please.
 
Our discussion here aside, Mr. Orr's own efforts in second-guessing the ordeal he went through, is in line with what many here are saying.
Thinking ahead……

I am going to look into a lightweight, short barreled revolver in a 44mag, that will be accessible quickly from my hip.

Todd Orr
 
Why not just explain to the members on this forum why you are trying so hard to prove a nebulous point regarding Bear Spray? It seems you have a very dedicated agenda? Just because our experiences differ regarding Bear Spray we are wrong? As far as Wyoming recommendations? You did not mention. Wyoming has changed it's laws allowing Archers to now carry handguns. Your post are very selective. :)
 
Well yeah, I don't think he makes any excuses about his obvious bias. Just look at his forum name and even Helen Keller could see that.

This thread isn't about me. It is about the Todd Orr bear attack.
 
Why not just explain to the members on this forum why you are trying so hard to prove a nebulous point regarding Bear Spray? It seems you have a very dedicated agenda? Just because our experiences differ regarding Bear Spray we are wrong? As far as Wyoming recommendations? You did not mention. Wyoming has changed it's laws allowing Archers to now carry handguns. Your post are very selective. :)

Utterly shameless...I hope everyone reading this can see that.
 
Mr. Orr should look a strong across the chest holster. Hip holsters and gun belts are usually lost during the initial attack. It is likely the hip rig can be twisted behind your body. The chest rig is more likely to be accessible through the Bears first attacks. You can expect to thrown around like a toy.:)
 
Why not just explain to the members on this forum why you are trying so hard to prove a nebulous point regarding Bear Spray? It seems you have a very dedicated agenda? Just because our experiences differ regarding Bear Spray we are wrong? As far as Wyoming recommendations? You did not mention. Wyoming has changed it's laws allowing Archers to now carry handguns. Your post are very selective. :)

States changing the law relative to carrying a handgun while archery hunting is not about bears. It's all about the handgun carry permit. Many like to carry a handgun in the woods and if you have the permit, I am led to believer many states allow it while archery hunting.

It is my opinion that Mr. Orr will carry a short barreled big bore handgun in the future. I hope he never has reason to make the decision about using it to defend himself with a bear. I don't have any experience with grizzly bears.

The discussion about bluff charges is interesting and black bears do make them with some regularity if you are too close or they wander too close to you and then notice you. Been there.
 
I didn't mention hunting at all, I said competent shooters and charges. With hundreds killed annually Africa seems a perfect market for a product as effective as bear spray.
Even tho you did not mention hunting, any evidence you have is still anecdotal, and most still probably comes from hunting experiences. Most ordinary folks in the bush there do not own firearms, much less are competent shooters. Even in South Africa, only 1 in 12 own a firearm. Firearm ownership and availability there is much different than here, where folks have more disposable income and availability is greater. Again, we need to compare apples to apples.

You are correct tho, bear spray may be an effective defense in Africa against certain species like big cats or any other animal with eyes, tear ducts and soft tissue in their mouth and nose. It has been shown to be effective against cougars here in the U.S. Ask any Postman what they carry for defense against dogs. It would be interesting to see what other animals it is effective against. Folks still would have to have it on them, easily accessible and know how to use it properly. Just like with firearms.
 
This thread isn't about me. It is about the Todd Orr bear attack.

So you deny your bias when posting?? LOL. You are interjecting your opinions into every thread you post regarding a spray can of stuff.

You claim and seem to have a knowledge base in that area above that of the average Joe, don't take my comments as a insult. Just acknowledge it. Sorta like this ad was paid for by..........................


.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top