Todd Orr Bear Attack Update: Why he didn't shoot...

Wyoming is a Constitutional carry state concealed or open no permits needed. The G&F can and does regulate firearms for hunting. I am a Certified Hunter Inst. in Wyoming. Our laws have been changed due the increase in Bear attacks.

Acera, There is a huge profit in Bear Spray. It is amazing the promotions they use in stores and local papers in Bear country. Westerners however are very independent and gun owners. These promoters are profit driven and will chase you like a "Deer Fly".

Dog Soldier said:

Wyoming is a Constitutional carry state concealed or open no permits needed.

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There should be some big fat air quotes and an asterisk somewhere in that sentence, and then footnotes for clarification. Something like this...

Dog Soldier said:

Wyoming is a "Constitutional carry" state concealed or open no permits needed*.

*Carry permits are required by law for all non-Wyoming residents within the state, which does not meet the perfect definition of Constitutional Carry.

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The same gov that just recently began to advise citizens to fight back against terrorists and stockpile emergency provisions falls short of promoting firearms in those circumstances just as they do with bears. It's pretty much impossible to find an instance in which the great white father wants use to be armed so them favoring spray over a more terminal means is understandable but saying they are not swaying the data to favor their outcome is less than genuine.

Dog Soldier said:

Acera, There is a huge profit in Bear Spray. It is amazing the promotions they use in stores and local papers in Bear country. Westerners however are very independent and gun owners. These promoters are profit driven and will chase you like a "Deer Fly".

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Ha, Ha. So how effective is bear spray on those??? What caliber for Deer Fly??? (obviously not something as small as a 9mm.)



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I just love Texas humor. Just ask my Grand kids. Yep, small Deer Flies a 9MM should work. This is right in the middle of the Rocky Mtn. hunting season. You would not believe the sales promotions on Bear Spray. The 75 % profits are behind these facts.

Dog Soldier said:

Acera, There is a huge profit in Bear Spray. It is amazing the promotions they use in stores and local papers in Bear country. Westerners however are very independent and gun owners. These promoters are profit driven and will chase you like a "Deer Fly".

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Pretty good sized profit made on handguns like Mountain guns and those airweight .44 snubs designed for SD against DG. I also seriously doubt if Buffalo Bore is selling their $2 a pop heavy .44 mag ammo at cost. There's bias on both sides here. Me, I'm in the camp both work well within their parameters when used correctly and proficiently. Neither will work worth a dang if used poorly and incorrectly. Neither is going to work 100% of the time. Folks need to consider what will work the best for them if ever the rare incident happens, regardless of what works for someone else. But one has to make that choice on their strengths and weaknesses, not because of a video they saw on a hunting forum of a PH taking down a charging elephant with a .470 Nitro Express. If you cannot shoot a big bore handgun well, you probably shouldn't stake your life on it.

Yep, that 75% profit margin is something they don't want to discuss. Why such flippant responses? Very juvenile sandbox lexicon. There are members on this forum who know me.

Handgun sales are the highest in history. The sale of handguns and ammo is hardly a result of infrequent bear confrontations. I can understand hunters who live outside the Rockies or Alaska do not understand this sales campaign. One member posted comparing the Bear Spray effectiveness on Bears to a Mailman squirting a house pet. We are all laughing at that one.

OC-Trainer said:

Ummm...Dog doesn't do facts. Just a heads up.



Anyone who believes that, PM me. I have a bridge for sale.

I'd be surprised if he even lives in Wyoming.

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Yeah, he is a real piece of 7 weeks work.

A good video on bear behavior and how to reduce risk during encounters. Shows how to emulate bear body language to "speak their language" as best we can:



I would say Mr. Orr followed these techniques well. However, this bear's behavior is among the outliers.

Consistent with that video, I might have been more aggressive since it is clear the bear went to unusual extremes, beyond what was needed to defend cubs and herself. So, defensive techniques could reasonably be replaced with fighting back. One difference, my handgun is set up for defense.

I was hiking in grizzly country shortly after this attack was reported. It's surreal looking into the forest and considering the possibility of a large predator rushing toward you.

OC-Trainer said:

Tisk, tisk. There you go again skirting the questions. Have you no shame? You continue to make baseless claims in the short time you've been here, and then when asked to support them, by me and other members (about a variety of topics), you just ignore them. You never back them up.

I posted the entire page from the Wyoming G&F website, as well as scoured their entire site to see exactly where they "encourage bow hunters to carry handguns." Found nothing. So yeah, selective

I'll try again...

Where are you getting your information from? Where are they recommending a handgun specifically? Please provide a source.

Let the world in on where you are getting this information, please.

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Yes you did and I showed the FLAWS on the studies in the other thread we had going on bear spray .vs. firearms.

"Our findings suggest that only those proficient in firearms use should rely on them for protection in bear country.
Success rates** by firearm type were similar with 84% of handgun users (31 of 37) and 76% of long gun users (134 of 176) successfully defending themselves from aggressive bears."

No kidding. Yet in the same study...

"Firearms failed to protect people for a variety of reasons including:
1. lack of time to respond to the bear (27%), <--- gee gosh! And how many didn't have time to respond to the bear with bear spray?
2. did not use the firearm (21%), <--- well duh, that ain't the firearms fault. That is the dummies fault.
3. mechanical issues (i.e., jamming;14%),
4. the proximity to bear was too close for deployment(9%), <--- And how many didn't have time to respond to the bear with bear spray?
5. the shooter missed the bear (9%), the gun was emptied and could not be reloaded (8%),
6. the safety mechanism was engaged and the person was unable to unlock it in time to use the gun (8%),
7. people tripped and fell while trying to shoot the bear (3%), <-- so how is this the gun's fault? And how many didn't have time to respond to the bear with bear spray?
8. and the firearm’s discharge reportedly trig-gered the bear to charge that ended further use of the gun(1%)"

Where is the same kind of stats on bear spray? Does he really think those handling bear spray were infallible?

And if you subtract that 27 + 21 + 9 + 3 (that is 60 percent of the failures so that makes the firearms success more like 90 percent or more) AND the fact that all kinds of firearms, .22s, .38s, 9mm, etc... are included, not 'bear' guns, then you find firearms do very well compared to bear spray.

Deaf

Contentiousness that will lead to no good end.That is a given .

Dog Soldier said:

O.C. uses selective quotes to prove his Urban view of Bear protection agendas. The Bear Spray is proposed as a nonlethal method of stopping Bear attacks. It ignores the real danger to the human factor.

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What?!?!?

He quoted the whole page from the agency you cited and it shows your statement to be wrong.

Conversely, you haven't post anything to support your claims.

OC-Trainer said:

Easy there, tiger. The size of the critter has nothing do with whether or not OC "fails." If the OC droplets do not come in contact with the mucous membranes of the mammal, for whatever reason (bear, human, or otherwise), it won't work. Not unlike when a bullet misses the target.

However, the size of the critter is absolutely a concern when choosing the proper firearm and load. A solo hiker/hunter with merely a pistol against a charging bear is really horrible odds. Unlike a lot of the Wyatt Earps that claim that they would stand tall and "drop'em" with a pistol, I under no such delusions. I know my limitations and understand human biology. I know how fine motor skills will completely deteriorate under a bear attack. Therefore, I want to stack the odds in my favor. Give me 2 cans of bear spray and the 12 gauge with slugs. Those two tools, coupled with exercising proper bear safety give you the best statical odds to survive a bear attack. The next best thing is staying home.

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NOW your posts make a 'bit' of sense.

Adding the 12 bore is a better idea than using "pepper spray" to stop an animal that fears nothing and is almost bulletproof to boot.

BUT the problem with the 12 bore [ and don't get me wrong,that is THE tool I might want IN HAND ] is that actually walking with one in port arms would be VERY tiring after a very short stroll.

A pistol worn in a very real life available place [ I choose the chest ] is much easier to hand and at least as easy to access as that can on your hip,belt,pack etc.

I have stopped critters with OC,12 bore,Taser,and pistol rounds.

Of course they were not very large and charging bears,but they were charging and I did manage to not wet myself AND put rounds where needed.

btw = the best stop and I do mean INSTANT was done on a large rottweiller with a Taser,as well as a pit bull that was also charging.

Smaller targets than bears and the Taser was VERY effective.

BUT on one instance the gun was needed as the dog kept coming ,even after 2 rides at 5 second with a fully charged taser.

I choose the handgun,as in the real world that is what is most likely to be ON YOU and IN HAND.

I also choose to carry a real rifle [ at least 30 caliber ] in the wild ----- whenever possible.Or the 12 bore with HARD slugs,and of course buckshot.

OC-Trainer said:

A solo hiker/hunter with merely a pistol against a charging bear is really horrible odds. Unlike a lot of the Wyatt Earps that claim that they would stand tall and "drop'em" with a pistol, I under no such delusions. I know my limitations and understand human biology. I know how fine motor skills will completely deteriorate under a bear attack. Therefore, I want to stack the odds in my favor. Give me 2 cans of bear spray and the 12 gauge with slugs. Those two tools, coupled with exercising proper bear safety give you the best statical odds to survive a bear attack. The next best thing is staying home.

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Whoa OC... your own study you tout says handguns are very effective. Something like 84 percent? How do you reconcile that?

Don't you remember the study?

"Our findings suggest that only those proficient in firearms use should rely on them for protection in bear country.
Success rates** by firearm type were similar with 84% of handgun users (31 of 37) and 76% of long gun users (134 of 176) successfully defending themselves from aggressive bears."


Deaf

His selective quotes regarding Wyoming laws does not reflect the reason for arming Bow hunters. Wyoming hunters are not urban idiots.

http://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...ng-hunters-to-carry-automatic-weapons.182230/

Didn't we just do this, with it ending with name calling?

Based on previous posts on this topic OC-Trainer is one of 3 things:
1. A bear
2. A purveyor of bear spray
3. A troll.

EDIT: Perhaps all three.

OC-Trainer said:

Silly goose. Haven't you learned by now not to step to me with incomplete information?
I stopped what I am doing to reply, so I hope you actually take the time to read the WHOLE study. Which isn't mine, by the way, I merely posted it.

Here is a direct quote from the study that seems to be giving you fits at night:

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You also deliberately misquote studies to suit whatever it is that you want to convey. So, yeah less than meaningless.

OC-Trainer said:

Stop taking selfies for a minute and actually read all of my posts. Maybe then you see how wrong you are. Once get through all 400 hundred or so, I expect you to back your statements up.

You have a great weekend taking selfies, Orcon. I'll expect your proof soon...

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Troooooooll